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Realistic O-Line expectations? (again?, lol, yes)


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Oddly enough a few of the football podcasts ive been listening to have had former linemen on the shows and talked about careers, draft, being a rookie, free agency, everything.

 

One of the shows was a call in/write in show, and a fan asked why it is that linemen seem so hit and miss, youll have new starters from the 5th round play flawlessly starting day 1 and then have guys drafted high play like shit from day one.

 

He broke it down like being drafted as a lineman is Russian roulette. he said the most important thing is what line your being drafted into. He said he was drafted into a Line with a HOF LT and a pro bowl Center, essentially the line had lost one guy and he was drafted to replace him, i think he was a 4th round pick. He said his learning curve was zero. he said he hit it off with his fellow linemen day 1, all were foodie types, spent many evenings together with their families, and they both knew the system, calls, everything, so he didnt have to think much, they communicated in game, so he was good and all those extra hours together football came up often so it was like having 20 extra practices before the season started. he then detailed he was a several year starter on a line later in his career, moved out to tackle, and the team had 2-3 new guys, and a 2nd round pick drafted for LG (i think) and he was surrounded by a trash LT and a new guy at Center, guys didnt all have similar interests so not a lot of hanging out, and that pick was 10x more talented than him but was drafted into a shit situation, surrounded by mediocre guys, no leadership outside the film room to help him, and he was gone in a few years. he said there are probably just as many talented guys who were drafted into a bad spot and got broken(his words, like ruining confidence and drive being lost and getting killed) as there are late picks who succeeded. 

 

He said there was an occasional fluke like a guy was a great zone blocker and for whatever reason was just mediocre as hell in a non-zone heavy scheme, but thats rare, usually there is film of everything you can imagine.

 

so that got me thinking again about our line.

 

and regardless if Carmen (who i assume) or Volson who win the LG spot, even tho there are new guys, they are vets, and seems like they are good mentors with Collins, Cappa, Karras, and Williams, we have 24 years or so of good or better O-line experience surrounded whoever that guy is.

 

They also all seem to all talk like they dove in getting to know eachother get the system down love the coach etc etc etc..

 

gives me a positive impression on that group that i havent had since like 2005. Its something i hadnt put a ton of thought into it, i have said interior guys who are next to trash talent level in brought down if play next to greatness talent level is brought up, but hasnt throught about it as deep as what the dude was talking about.

 

anyone thinking the same thing or ahve a thought on who wins the job and why?

 

i think carmen is the more physically talented guy, came in out of shape and as a dumbass rookie, if he has his head on straight now, the talent gain should still be ahead of the curve on Volson, so thats why i think he edges him out.

 

 

 

 

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The Bengal lines of the ‘80’s seemed to have this cohesiveness you mention. Of course, Munoz was the star anchor, but how do misfit toys like Reimers/Walter/Montoya/Kozerski/Blados/etc ever fit in? 
 

You called it: they were always around one another. They knew each other like books. They could add a guy like Kevin Sargent, and never miss a beat. The ones who couldn’t fit in, never did. 
 

I can still remember Kozerski and Walter playing alongside each other in 1993–long after all the others had departed. They knew where each other were even then, while dross like Thomas Rayam and Tom Scott flailed around. 

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I base that top 10 expectation on a lot of what you covered above - the vets they brought in and the maturation of Jonah should fast forward this line to extreme competence. I hold more hope for Volson in part because of Cappa and Karras who came to the nfl from small schools and made it big.  They should be excellent teachers for Volson making a similar transition.

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3 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

The Bengal lines of the ‘80’s seemed to have this cohesiveness you mention. Of course, Munoz was the star anchor, but how do misfit toys like Reimers/Walter/Montoya/Kozerski/Blados/etc ever fit in? 
 

You called it: they were always around one another. They knew each other like books. They could add a guy like Kevin Sargent, and never miss a beat. The ones who couldn’t fit in, never did. 
 

I can still remember Kozerski and Walter playing alongside each other in 1993–long after all the others had departed. They knew where each other were even then, while dross like Thomas Rayam and Tom Scott flailed around. 

 

it does kind of feel like one of the last "old school"realities left in the NFL. With the line not being a solo role its tough to pay one guy big and fix in a single free agency, like a QB pay one a lot and youre good, with the line you better have a few guys already. I am looking forward to watching these guys play and hopefully stay healthy.

 

3 hours ago, membengal said:

My expectations are top 10 line. I think Volson or Ben brown have LG job by week 3.

 

top 10 is possible, anything top half should be magical compared to last season. aside from injury, id be surprised if there is a week 3 change, that means the team made the wrong call, they dont owe carmen shit, so not like he will get the respect nod to start, i think, aside from injury of course, the starters stays.

 

2 hours ago, membengal said:

I base that top 10 expectation on a lot of what you covered above - the vets they brought in and the maturation of Jonah should fast forward this line to extreme competence. I hold more hope for Volson in part because of Cappa and Karras who came to the nfl from small schools and made it big.  They should be excellent teachers for Volson making a similar transition.

 

i may disagree with the reasoning here, im not sure once you make it to the nfl and get to work it much matters where you came from, unless of course it effects your attitude and work ethic, which may be behind your reasoning. 

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I don’t think this is  just a line thing, going to the wrong team can be an absolute career killer. 
 

Burrow could have ended up in Washington or Detroit if we didn’t have pick #1.   Hell, plenty of talking heads thought his career was doomed when we picked him. 
 

 

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35 minutes ago, SF2 said:

I don’t think this is  just a line thing, going to the wrong team can be an absolute career killer. 
 

Burrow could have ended up in Washington or Detroit if we didn’t have pick #1.   Hell, plenty of talking heads thought his career was doomed when we picked him. 
 

 

 

oh absolutely, just slightly more under the microscope that regardless of team success, your positiona makes can make or break you. but unquestioned there are dumpster fire teams to go to... 

 

see the lions draft picks face here on the left: hahahahah

 

image.png

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“I may disagree with the reasoning here, im not sure once you make it to the nfl and get to work it much matters where you came from, unless of course it effects your attitude and work ethic, which may be behind your reasoning.”

 

I wasn’t saying Volson will make it because he is from a small school, I was saying he will have a leg up at making it because he is joining a line where two other guys have made It from a small school and will be uniquely positioned to help him with the transition.

 

i think volson’s size and movement are more

than adequate and the barrier I would normally see for him is the transitionn from small school to NFL. The two things in his favor are NDSU is not a typical small school and plenty of players before him have made the leap from there and the line he is joining should be one that helps to further ease that leap.

 

I already trust his work ethic more than I ever will Carman. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, membengal said:

 

I already trust his work ethic more than I ever will Carman. 

 

 

 

I think Carman was a terrible draft pick for many reasons, but I wouldn't write him off just yet.  Hopefully he is putting the work in and is ready to go.  Asking a rookie to step in is tough no matter the situation in the NFL.  Carman showed it and I don't think they want to ask Volson to do it either.  While the Bengals signed three really good guys, they need some time on the field to mesh as well.  I don't know where they will rank, but as long as they keep Burrow much cleaner and are playing their best football from December on they will be a huge success. 

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The thing about the 2 prior super bowl teams with Munoz is that he was so good, he could be counted on to win his assignment 1 on 1. They didn't need to do a lot of combo blocking with him so it freed up the rest of the line. Not quite as good as having an extra player but almost. Meanwhile the defense was trying to give their RDE some help.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

The thing about the 2 prior super bowl teams with Munoz is that he was so good, he could be counted on to win his assignment 1 on 1. They didn't need to do a lot of combo blocking with him so it freed up the rest of the line. Not quite as good as having an extra player but almost. Meanwhile the defense was trying to give their RDE some help.

 

 


Williams needs help vs top rushers. 

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3 hours ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

Virtually ever tackle does against top rushers. That is why they are top rushers

 

Sure.  The comment was in counterpoint to the comments about Munoz.  In reality, Williams is average. 

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5 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

 

Sure.  The comment was in counterpoint to the comments about Munoz.  In reality, Williams is average. 

 

He just played his first full season, there's still room to improve.  

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3 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

He just played his first full season, there's still room to improve.  

And we will take average, it’s certainly better than  Andre “Sugar Tits” Smith 19, Cordy “IR” Glenn 18, and Cedric “The Statue” Ogbuehi 17.    

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20 hours ago, GoBengals said:

 

oh absolutely, just slightly more under the microscope that regardless of team success, your positiona makes can make or break you. but unquestioned there are dumpster fire teams to go to... 

 

see the lions draft picks face here on the left: hahahahah

 

image.png

I can’t believe Stafford stayed that long. 
 

I do agree a good lineman going to a bad team and staff is a recipe for disaster.
 

Every mistake on the Oline is amplified.  A single mistake can end a drive or get your QB laid out. 
 

Make a mistake on the dline and the linebackers and safeties can minimize it.   

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On 6/13/2022 at 4:59 PM, membengal said:

My expectations are top 10 line. I think Volson or Ben brown have LG job by week 3.

Same here.  O-Lines must flow as one.  Our O-Line Coordinator did a remarkable job last season given the talent level he was working with.  He kept them from committing penalties (again, for that level of talent), while he did what he could plugging-and-playing a new guy or two every week.

 

Realistically, of the four O-linemen we signed, three if you are not counting the TE, one should do as well as expected, one should do worse than expected and the other should struggle with injuries (or a combination of the three should miss 17 games due to injuries).  Our TE will be lined up on the O-Line for much of the season, but won't have the same blocking assignments he was forced to have last season because of the help needed on the O-Line.   Collins doesn't need help.  If we can do better than losing a total of 17 games total due to injuries from Collins, Karras and Cappa, then we have exceeded expectations.  If we get 34 games of "expected performance", as well as they did the last two years while working together for the first time and two of the three in a new system (can't tell you how much it means for Collins to be an expert in this system already), the we will have exceeded expectations.

 

It's still possible that the team signs one more Veteran O-Lineman, though we already have that in our Starting LG (I assume that's who wins the job), in case of an injury setback in training camp.

 

We won't have an idea just how good this O-Line's potential is until after Thanksgiving, when the games start to matter, we've had our mid-year bye, and the Line has three months of live action playing together.  They not only have to get used to each other, but everyone else has to get used to them, too.

 

Burrow is going to be giddy about the intelligence level of his unit, who will see things that he doesn't even see pre-snap.

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We've at least got 5 starting quality OL on paper which is an improvement.  Still next to no depth but that's something.  Don't know why it took JB getting hit 100 more times and losing a SB for them to finally get the message but thankfully I think they got it, at long last.

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17 hours ago, membengal said:

“I may disagree with the reasoning here, im not sure once you make it to the nfl and get to work it much matters where you came from, unless of course it effects your attitude and work ethic, which may be behind your reasoning.”

 

I wasn’t saying Volson will make it because he is from a small school, I was saying he will have a leg up at making it because he is joining a line where two other guys have made It from a small school and will be uniquely positioned to help him with the transition.

 

i think volson’s size and movement are more

than adequate and the barrier I would normally see for him is the transitionn from small school to NFL. The two things in his favor are NDSU is not a typical small school and plenty of players before him have made the leap from there and the line he is joining should be one that helps to further ease that leap.

 

I already trust his work ethic more than I ever will Carman. 

 

 

 

technically thats exactly what you said, twice now, not being argumentative i swear, but a vet from LSU vs a vet from Toledoarent going to have a different impact on a new guy from Ohio university(as examples) the new guy from X small school is just learning, regardless of the vets pedigree, IMO. 

 

I get the whole "these guys did it, i can too" point of view which is what i assume youre saying, but, i cant understand how that gives him a leg up in any sort of way to win the job.

 

13 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

 

I think Carman was a terrible draft pick for many reasons, but I wouldn't write him off just yet.  Hopefully he is putting the work in and is ready to go.  Asking a rookie to step in is tough no matter the situation in the NFL.  Carman showed it and I don't think they want to ask Volson to do it either.  While the Bengals signed three really good guys, they need some time on the field to mesh as well.  I don't know where they will rank, but as long as they keep Burrow much cleaner and are playing their best football from December on they will be a huge success. 

 

we can all certainly agree on that part.

 

13 hours ago, membengal said:

I'm not writing him off. But I don't trust him. He's got a lot of work to do. Maybe he will do it. 

 

yea nothing really points to that being the case. yes he showed up fat and stupid last year, yes that was immature and foolish, then he had a full season of weekly wake up calls, he showed up this season not worthless, and was given the starters reps. if he was in need of motivation, or was out of shape or had an attitude, they have Volson ahead of him to motivate him. Hell i almost expected it, the team doesnt have a lot of time to waste here, in their eyes, chubby getting the first team reps means chubby is the starter in their eyes. can that change? sure, butits likely going to take injury ot some wild attitude issue IMO. as i cant imagine a scenario where they didnt put the most talented guy they expect to start out there day one.  IMO.

 

13 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

Don't remember which video it was on but BengalsSans doesnt see Volson as a starter

who the fuck is that.

 

11 hours ago, sparky151 said:

The thing about the 2 prior super bowl teams with Munoz is that he was so good, he could be counted on to win his assignment 1 on 1. They didn't need to do a lot of combo blocking with him so it freed up the rest of the line. Not quite as good as having an extra player but almost. Meanwhile the defense was trying to give their RDE some help.

 

 

 

that was like 4 generations of football ago. DE's have surpassed Tackles athletically, by a lot. Munoz would be too slow to sniff the field today from his peak, like most other spots and old timers, but that aside, no one is winning 1 on 1 too often out there, defensive talent is schemed against, there are no trenches anymore, maybe inside some, but on the outside, its tricks and sprints so to speak.

 

10 hours ago, UncleEarl said:


Williams needs help vs top rushers. 

 

lol well yea.

 

10 hours ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

Virtually ever tackle does against top rushers. That is why they are top rushers

 

indeed.

 

7 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

 

Sure.  The comment was in counterpoint to the comments about Munoz.  In reality, Williams is average. 

 

you are spot on williams is the definition of average, and thats alright, even average isnt easy to come by in the NFL. 

 

2 hours ago, SF2 said:

And we will take average, it’s certainly better than  Andre “Sugar Tits” Smith 19, Cordy “IR” Glenn 18, and Cedric “The Statue” Ogbuehi 17.    

 

and previous point proven right here. and my stats on the other thread showing 33% of first round OL pan out... 1/3rd.... ill take average.

 

51 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

We've at least got 5 starting quality OL on paper which is an improvement.  Still next to no depth but that's something.  Don't know why it took JB getting hit 100 more times and losing a SB for them to finally get the message but thankfully I think they got it, at long last.

 

good lord give me a break, you think they finally got the message? they drafted 3 linemen and added 2 free agent starters to the o-line last year.... they hadnt got the message then i suppose? they replaced HALF THE OLINE ROSTER..... a fluke i suppose, as they had not got the message ?

 

you know 10 linemen started games for us last year due to injury right? and an 11th took snaps in a game due ti injury and just didnt start.  11 guys in 5 spots....

 

did you want different guys to get injured? more talented injured guys would have been better? i feel like im taking crazy pills.

 

i randomly chose two playoff teams, bills had 7 guys start games, buccs also had 7, each had that 7th guy start 1 game, 

 

bengals had 55% (roughly) more starters thrown in there, due to injury, there was plenty of rotating due to bad play, but bad play was a result og backups not ready to play or also being injured or carmen being fat and thrown onto the right side at a new position.

 

the bengals had a patch work line and injuries and circumstances made it a flat out nightmare. but they didnt leave the offseason with that nightmare as the plan. to over and over and over say they didnt address the line, and "finally got the message" is absolutely wild. 

 

PS: they draft one and signed a free agent the previous year too. 7 new linemen in the two previous offseasons...

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, GoBengals said:

 

 

 

 

good lord give me a break, you think they finally got the message? they drafted 3 linemen and added 2 free agent starters to the o-line last year.... they hadnt got the message then i suppose? they replaced HALF THE OLINE ROSTER..... a fluke i suppose, as they had not got the message ?

 

 

 

 

 

They'd brought in bargains, scrubs and retreads.  Karras and Collins are on an entirely different level than any of those additions from last year - hell, any recent year.  Either one of them would've been the best OL pickup in FA in a long time & it's not even a close competition. 

 

Now, would either have signed here without seeing this team in SB contention? Probably not, but the team still went out and got real NFL talent for the OL.  It's not about how many bodies they threw at the problem while crossing their fingers.  This year they didn't bring in maybes or projects or hopefuls, they went and got guys that have proven they can play.

 

Think there was a clear change in philosophy there, not sure what you attribute that to?

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