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Game Thread: Bengals at Giants Pre-season game 2 - 8/21/22


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3 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

 

I think you are totally missing my point.  Yes, it is legal.  I do not "blame" either player.  It's still a shitty, dangerous play just like the three plays I described that prominently injured Bengals.  All three are now illegal.  This isn't black and white, right and wrong.  Hell, even Whitworth says maybe this block should be removed. 

Football is a dangerous sport. You can't legislate every point of danger out of the sport. As of now it's legal. If the rules change we can revisit it

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DENVER OFFENSIVE LINE'S 'DANGEROUS' CUT-AND-ROLL BLOCK DRAWING FIRE

By JASON COLE Staff Writer
South Florida Sun-Sentinel

Jan 30, 1999 at 12:00 am

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1999-01-30-9901300043-story.html

 

NFL bans “roll up” blocks to the side of a player’s leg

Posted by Michael David Smith on March 25, 2014, 11:13 AM EDT
 
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AGAIN - it is LITERALLY LEGAL AND EVERY TEAM DOES IT WITHIN THE TACKLE BOX IF THE PLAYER YOU ARE CUTTING IS NOT CURRENTLY ENGAGED.  DEFENSIVE PLAYERS ARE TAUGHT HOW TO ENGAGE WHEN THEY ARE CUT AND THIBEDEAUX FUCKED THAT UP BUT SURE PAGES AND PAGES IN HERE FROM BJ AND OTHERS ON HOW THE BLOCK WAS DIRTY. 

 

FOR FUCKSAKE

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1 hour ago, membengal said:

Bottom line. Watch. Or not. Schlereth goes off on Thibideaux. 

 

 


This guy is about driving likes, retweets and pastes just like you did.  Yes, he played, but this is a guy selling outrage.  Pass. 

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37 minutes ago, membengal said:

 

A good measured conversation. Nice.  Trying to have that here.  No one is arguing the block was illegal.  The question is should it be?  Sounds like the NFL is having the same discussion. 

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9 minutes ago, TigerJ@w said:

That is exactly what I was saying.  He needed a better technique. He is young and the coaches or himself are to blame. 

Personally  think it is a bad idea to play a top 5 rookie like Thibideaux so much in a preseason game against a bunch of desperate rookies fighting for a roster spot.

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6 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

 

I think you are totally missing my point.  Yes, it is legal.  I do not "blame" either player.  It's still a shitty, dangerous play just like the three plays I described that prominently injured Bengals.  All three are now illegal.  This isn't black and white, right and wrong.  Hell, even Whitworth says maybe this block should be removed. 

It is black and white in terms of the current rules as it is legal.. If the rules change then it will still be black and white but illegal. 

 

On Sirius this morning Charlie Weis said this is a block you see every week but all 32 teams. All teams teach the block and all teams teach how to defend it. Case closed. 

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10 minutes ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

It is black and white in terms of the current rules as it is legal.. If the rules change then it will still be black and white but illegal. 

 

On Sirius this morning Charlie Weis said this is a block you see every week but all 32 teams. All teams teach the block and all teams teach how to defend it. Case closed. 

It's a block that happens 6-8 times a game between teams. Times 16 games a week. Times 17 games a year. It happens between 1600 and 2200 times a year. The reaction was SO wrong. 

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And yet, per Mike Pereira the NFL has been discussing the rule and it could change in the future.  I really don't understand the emotional response here.  Yes, it's a legal play.  Yes, some players really don't like it.  Yes, some old schoolers think you need to deal with it.  It's a debatable play and we aren't the only ones talking about it.

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I realize this link is behind a firewall, but if you subscribe to the Athletic and have interest in this subject it's worth a read.  Current and former players, people that know a whole lot more about this than we do, are split on the issue of cut blocks. 

 

I know it's expensive, but The Athletic is a great website, IMO.  Good sportswriters from all over.  For a guy who's favorite teams aren't local its a great resource.

 

https://theathletic.com/3529722/2022/08/23/kayvon-thibodeaux-thaddeus-moss-dirty-play-twitter/

 

I did want to cut and paste the comments of Duke Manyweather who runs the OL Masterminds camp and generally supports cut blocking. 

 

“The block itself gets executed a ton in games. It was highlighted (Sunday) night because it wasn’t smooth,” Manyweather said. “Thibodeaux didn’t play it well, and it wasn’t a good block. It was permissible. It was just bad football.”

 

"Here’s what Moss got wrong, also according to Manyweather: He should have used a cut block only if Thibodeaux was in motion and not at the play’s point of attack. When Thibodeaux settled into a stance, Moss should have simply run through him."

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11 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

When Thibodeaux settled into a stance, Moss should have simply run through him."

 

I think that was also what made the play look so bad optically, is that Thibodeaux basically stops and almost gives himself up on the play, and while standing straight up with a planted straight leg, Moss then dives really low at his shins (far below the knee even). 

 

Now of course, Moss would likely claim "how the hell am I supposed to know he would do something so awkward", which would be true. 

 

But the larger issue at hand is not whether this is legal or "dirty" (a subjective moral term anyway) -- but whether it should be legal? I find it odd and inconsistent that a league which fines you 15 yards for lightly tapping a QB's helmet, allows a TE or FB to peel back and dive at a guys kneecaps (who is not the ball carrier). 

 

Generally, I would say you should never be able to dive at another player's knees who is not running at you with the ball (which is then fair game).  Why the NFL allows it in this instance is up for debate, hence the passions on twitter and even in this thread. 

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I saw one discussion between ex players where they basically said that the reason the NFL allows these kind of peel back cut blocks is to protect QB's from free rushers and the NFL is basically making the (monetary) judgement that star QB's are more valuable than DE's coming off the edge. 

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Lastly, I would add that I think the reason plays like this strike such a guttural reaction from fans, is that most people generally like to think of football as being a "man-up" sport where strength should take precedence when blocking. So when a smaller player who would normally be overpowered chooses to "block" a larger and better player by diving at his knees, it starts to resemble a smaller guy in a playground fight kicking his opponent in the nuts, or poking him in the eye. It begins to seem like a "too clever" way to beat your opponent in a way that is not "fair and square" (whatever the hell that means). 

 

Now of course it is 100% legal, done all the time, allowed, taught by all coaches etc. But that doesn't mean that it lines up with way fans see the game and imagine it with their own unwritten "moral" code of what is right, clean, and fair -- versus dirty and cheap.

 

Fans like to think of their team as being more ethical than their opponents (who they like to view as cheating bastards), so most fans don't want to think of the players on their favorite team being a bunch of knee-capping injurers, winning because of legal "cheap shots". 

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I know it's not our Starters, but our Linebackers were targeted 15 times and they gave up 15 receptions for about 164 yards.  I don't care if you're a guy fighting for the practice squad,...that's unacceptable.  Our Defense also didn't register a sack all day against the Giants' Offensive Line.  The unblocked DB was the QB's responsibility to identify, so that wasn't against the O-Line.

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5 hours ago, membengal said:

It's a block that happens 6-8 times a game between teams. Times 16 games a week. Times 17 games a year. It happens between 1600 and 2200 times a year. The reaction was SO wrong. 

Yes.  As Mark Schlereth said, the Giants' DE did the poorest job he possibly could at protecting himself, as he should have known that block was coming.  He basically called him stupid.

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I thought I was missing something so I watched it again..  I was cut-block exactly like that more than once in high school ball FFS.  RB's pick up blitzers like this all the time at every level of the game.  Sometimes people get hurt playing football. This is a weird argument.  

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18 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

And yet, per Mike Pereira the NFL has been discussing the rule and it could change in the future.  I really don't understand the emotional response here.  Yes, it's a legal play.  Yes, some players really don't like it.  Yes, some old schoolers think you need to deal with it.  It's a debatable play and we aren't the only ones talking about it.

The art of blocking has never been an exact art. In the “old NFL”, it was the Wild West in terms of getting the ball down the field. No one could use their hands for anything, no extension of arms, basically just straight-forward and square-up. Those were the days—and for all intents and purposes not really altered until a decade ago—where cuts/slants/blind sides were full-tilt boogie. 
 

I watch modern run blocking especially, and find it very lacking—basically just run into someone’s way…grab onto them if you can..and lean. Add in some old-time cuts and roll blocks (where they can), and voila! 
 

Like I said, it was common practice back when I played, but I will always remember coaches admonishing us to “look in his face” when blocking, and stay away from the rolls and cuts “cheap shit” when possible. Then again, by any means necessary tho…wink wink. 
 

Was viewing some early ‘60’s highlights for Jim Brown. Wanted to see how the blocking was on the rushing plays. It was incredible to see how many rolls and cuts were used on every clip—and that was with the defensive players being allowed to bop their opponents up side the head (another old time “legal” defensive player mainstay).

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