Smizno Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 [b]Bengals seek $43M for stadium fixes[/b]By Sharon Coolidge • scoolidge@enquirer.com • January 30, 2011 The Bengals want Hamilton County to pour $43.6 million into Paul Brown Stadium repairs and improvements over the next decade, four times the amount the county expected to spend. The plan, obtained by the Enquirer under a public records request, doesn't specify the improvements, listing them only in broad categories like "groundskeeping," "audio/visual," or "concession." But it does include the county buying an $8 million, state-of-the-art scoreboard sometime in the next two years, the Bengals said. The Bengals insist their wishes are modest - the basic costs of maintaining an aging stadium. Without the scoreboard, the Bengals are seeking about $35 million. One expert said $20 million to $40 million is reasonable for maintaining Paul Brown stadium over the next decade. The county says the stadium might indeed need that much work - but the county can't afford it. This year's repairs are likely to be the least expensive, with the county expected to shell out $800,000 for repairs and improvements, including new carpet for the grounds crew office, replacing the draft beer system and making the heating and air-conditioning system more energy efficient. "The Bengals are not a team that goes for the high end for much of anything," said Stuart Dornette, an attorney for the Bengals. "It's not as if they're interested in throwing around money." The alternative, they said, is a deteriorating stadium like its predecessor, Riverfront Stadium. That stadium was in such bad shape by the mid-1990s that the only alternative was building two new stadiums The requests come as the county struggles to pay off the $1 billion cost of building Great American Ball Park and Paul Brown stadium. The sales tax revenues envisioned as paying the stadium debt have fallen short; this year for the first time county taxpayers are being forced to pay higher property taxes to help cover that shortfall. The Bengals need to face "economic reality," said commissioner Greg Hartmann. "The stadium might require $43 million in improvements in the next 10 years, but if the sales tax doesn't generate the dollars we can't do it," said Hartmann, the president of the county's three-man commission. Commissioner Chris Monzel echoed the idea that the county can't do improvements it can't pay for. "We're trying just to keep afloat," Monzel said. "I'm hoping the Bengals will be realistic." Commissioner Todd Portune, the board's only Democrat, said he isn't surprised by the Bengals' multi-million dollar wish list, but said, "It offends me and should offend every taxpayer." "You can't ignore maintenance" Mark Rosentraub, a professor of sports management at the University of Michigan, said stadium maintenance is no different than making home repairs - just on a larger scale. "They attract several hundreds of thousands of people a year, there's a lot of wear and tear," said Rosentraub, author of several books on stadium financing. "Depending on age and environmental factors, you can expect maintenance costs of a couple million a year." In Cincinnati's case, he said $2 million to $4 million a year is a reasonable expectation. "It's goes back to the original leases that were very advantageous to the teams," he said. "But that problem exists, you can't ignore maintenance. It will only get worse." The county - which owns the stadiums - is legally obligated to pay for the improvements under the terms of the lease it agreed to with the Bengals in 1997. That includes a new scoreboard. But the county says it's first obligation is paying back $405 million in stadium debt over the next 10 years for both riverfront stadiums. "If the Sales Tax Fund comes up short, the very last expenditure to be cut will be the debt service. ... other expenditures are logically and legally less protected," said Hamilton County Interim Administrator Christian Sigman. The lease requires the improvements. That means the county would have to come up with any additional money some other way - a higher sales tax, as commissioner Portune has proposed, or more money from other county services like roads or policing. The Bengals have shown a willingness to work with the county. They allowed the county to whittle this year's list down by half from $1.6 million. And last year the team did chip in a little more than half the total $900,000 cost of new cash registers. The lease had called for the county to buy them, but the Bengals helped out as a gesture of goodwill, both sides said. Out of the stadium fund cash flow, the county budgets $1 million a year for maintenance costs in each of the professional sports stadiums. During negotiations last year with the Bengals, the county said it could cobble together $23 million to pay for some improvements over the next five years, but that was only if the teams would give the county $9.6 million immediately. In December 2010, when the county reduced the property tax rollback to generate money for stadium expenses, the Bengals and Reds had agreed to pitch in a combined $9.6 million over the next five years. By getting it immediately, the county said it would have helped reduce this year's deficit, and helped lower future deficits, freeing up more money for the stadium repairs. That deal that was cut in December, but was never signed. The Bengals now say that deal has fallen through, though the county remains hopeful. Since Paul Brown Stadium opened in 2000 and Great American Ball Park opened in 2003, taxpayers have made $10.2 million in improvements to the football stadium and $2.1 million in improvements to the baseball stadium. That's partly because of differences in the leases: The Bengals lease, signed in 1997, says the county must pay for routine maintenance and all capital repairs at Paul Brown Stadium. The Reds lease, signed in 2003, says the county only has to pay for capital improvements at Great American; the team pays the rest. Last stadium 'deteriorated' Paul Brown Stadium is a decade old - and with time comes maintenance, Dornette said. From the beginning, the stadium was designed to last decades, beyond even the end of the team's lease in 2026. To make that happen, Dornette said both sides recognized there would have to be an ongoing investment in the upkeep. "Look what happened in Cincinnati: The city of Cincinnati stopped putting money into Riverfront Stadium and it deteriorated." Dornette added the scoreboard isn't a team want - it's a need. The Bengals scoreboard, for example, is not high definition. The Bengals are stuck with the equivalent of an analog TV in a digital age, they say. Other stadiums, including the rival Steelers, for example, feature high definition scoreboards. A look at other teams shows Hamilton County isn't alone in bearing the cost of stadium upkeep. City taxpayers in Jacksonville, St. Louis and Tampa pay for their football teams' stadiums upkeep, according to Enquirer research. Over the next decade stadium upkeep is likely to be costlier, as the stadium ages. Since it opened in 2000, a dozen other NFL stadiums have opened or been rebuilt - stadiums with ever more lavish scoreboards, luxury boxes, and concessions. Next week's Super Bowl, for example, will be held in the 80,000-seat Cowboys stadium, which opened in 2009 at a cost of $1.15 billion - paid for through funding that includes taxpayers and team-owner Jerry Jones. It features the largest retractable roof stadium in the world, with a nearly column-free interior and a high definition video screen that stretches from the 20-yard line to the 20-yard line. The Bengals say they don't want anything that fancy. Their 10-year projection isn't a done deal. Each fall the teams submit a more detailed list of anticipated expenses for the following year. The county and team then work together on what projects will actually get done. Even then, commissioners must sign off on projects as they come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Numbers| Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 [quote]... replacing the draft beer system ...[/quote] I wonder if this is the new system which fills from the bottom ? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiu_IX14wLI&feature=player_embedded[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Numbers| Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amNtO5gdxwQ[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Numbers| Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 There are souvenir "magnets" in the bottom. I can see these things being swallowed by idiots... or collected... etc... I don't think too many people will be leaving their beer cups behind anymore or at least the bottom will be missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-GoBengals- Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 seems straight forward, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I know the cba doesn't ready address issues like this, but the nfl (and sports in general) have been expanding during the past decades or so when everything was gravy. Many cities now simply do not have the funds to cover normal operating costs due largely to the fall in property tax revenues, much less maintaining arenas, stadiums, and museums. I can see just about every team facing an increase in the amounts they would have to pay. Here in South Florida we just financed a new stadium for the Marlins and the NFL is asking for improvements to the Dolphins stadium if they expect to get anymore Superbowls. In my opinion, something should be written into the revenue sharing for capital improvements when there is almost a nationwide shortcoming of revenues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubdub Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Interesting conundrum when you have a fanbase that is extremely down on a franchise that the majority of that fanbase pays for the franchises most important asset. So no matter how you look at it if you live in Hamilton County you support the Bengals...through property tax and/or tickets...if you like it or not. Mike Brown runs one of the worst franchise, numbers wise, in the NFL and will still profit based off other NFL franchises and the backs of Hamilton County residents. There is really no incentive for him to make a single change because his bills will virtually be payed if he wins or loses. EPIC!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 As the owner of the stadium, it really does fall to the county to maintain the place. They have a lease with a tenant which specifies they will maintain and improve the property. Those are typical commercial lease terms. The best solution is for the stadium owner to increase revenues. Schedule a music festival or two during the summer. I expect the team's lease with the county doesn't have this limitation but it sounds like the bonds which financed construction are revenue bonds rather than general obligation bonds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Richards Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Wow. Good luck Bengals....buhahahahahah! Not happening. They'll be lucky to get a 1/3, if that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeb Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 That's why my property taxes skyrocketed this year. Try adding to the sales tax, ...you government morons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|westside bengal| Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Why doesn't the stadium have a corporate sponsor name? That is usually worth several million dollars a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tigre Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Here's the facts of life: build buildings, maintain them. Buildings deteriorate over time, maintain them. Very few stadia nationwide have been completely privately financed (and maintained). The vast majority are publicly-owned or involved in public operation. Yeah, that means you pay for keeping it up. I don't ask for the 41-story government office buildings in my state either. But I'm paying for their upkeep nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYbengals Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 [quote name='westside bengal' timestamp='1296431149' post='966657'] Why doesn't the stadium have a corporate sponsor name? That is usually worth several million dollars a year. [/quote] +100 If the county owns the stadium, couldn't they sell the naming rights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 The issue here it's not the fact that they need maintenance, but rather what level of importance you give them relative to "essential" services that a community needs. Let's cut fire, police, and school services to honor a lease agreement and get a jumbotron. More exactly politically feasible or expedient. Bridges, sewerage systems, and other core infrastructure need maintenance too and right now we are at a point where states are hurting financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Sorry for the typos on my previous post...replying from my phone and the "swype" keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 [quote name='sparky151' timestamp='1296411500' post='966637'] As the owner of the stadium, it really does fall to the county to maintain the place. They have a lease with a tenant which specifies they will maintain and improve the property. Those are typical commercial lease terms. [b] The best solution is for the stadium owner to increase revenues. Schedule a music festival or two during the summer.[/b] I expect the team's lease with the county doesn't have this limitation but it sounds like the bonds which financed construction are revenue bonds rather than general obligation bonds. [/quote] The thing that bothers me about this whole deal is that (if I am not mistaken) the county gets a pittance from holding such events [i]and[/i] they are extremely limited in number by the veto power of the team in scheduling such things. The county needs to assert their ownership of the facility and basically tell the Bengals to fuck off and that during the offseason they are planning to schedule a shit-ton of events in an effort to raise money for the county, the Bengals, and stadium upkeep. The taxpayers of the county and the county government essentially own the stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoutforlife591 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Let me some up some of this. Taxes are complex. Sales tax are very directly a tax on the poor. If you don't get this dynamic then we should discuss further. It's my understanding that the Bengals own naming rights. We've previously discussed how PBS is not a viable stadium for music events and such. On top of that it really doesn't earn the city any money. And while they own the stadium, just like a landlord, you don't tell your renter's to fuck off when you've got a prostitute you need to keep away from home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 [img]http://content.screencast.com/users/sois/folders/Jing/media/e04f9f16-b5d7-4b04-b490-79201dc84890/2011-01-29_2329.png[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 [quote name='NYbengals' timestamp='1296436429' post='966663'] +100 If the county owns the stadium, couldn't they sell the naming rights? [/quote] they did, Mike Brown bought them and named the stadium after his dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 [quote name='Scoutforlife591' timestamp='1296439190' post='966675'] Let me some up some of this. Taxes are complex. Sales tax are very directly a tax on the poor. If you don't get this dynamic then we should discuss further. It's my understanding that the Bengals own naming rights. We've previously discussed how PBS is not a viable stadium for music events and such. On top of that it really doesn't earn the city any money. And while they own the stadium, just like a landlord, you don't tell your renter's to fuck off when you've got a prostitute you need to keep away from home. [/quote] How are sales taxes "directly a tax on the poor"? Don't rich people buy things, in fact [i]more[/i] things than poor people do...hence more tax revenue? And why isn't PBS a suitable venue for concerts, flea markets, special events, etc? In fact, interestingly enough, if you google "stadium event ideas", guess what is the very first return on that search? Why, nothing other than a bengals.com webpage! Here it is: [url="http://www.bengals.com/stadium/stadium-events/event-ideas.html"]http://www.bengals.com/stadium/stadium-events/event-ideas.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 They are a tax on the poor because that 6 or 7 % (or whatever you pay in Ohio) is a larger % of the poor's income than someone earning 6 figures. Not a good or bad thing...just different. A progressive tax system (like federal income tax) accounts for that and thus the more you make more you pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 [quote name='jza10304' timestamp='1296442629' post='966691'] They are a tax on the poor because that 6 or 7 % (or whatever you pay in Ohio) is a larger % of the poor's income than someone earning 6 figures. Not a good or bad thing...just different. A progressive tax system (like federal income tax) accounts for that and thus the more you make more you pay. [/quote] Yeah, maybe, except good luck getting the federal tax revenue stream into Hamilton County and the stadium fund. Wait a minute...could we get stimulus money to pay for that? Especially in lieu of the stupidest idea [i]ever[/i] for tumbleweed-strewn downtown Cincinnati, the fucking streetcar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turningpoint Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 [quote name='westside bengal' timestamp='1296431149' post='966657'] Why doesn't the stadium have a corporate sponsor name? That is usually worth several million dollars a year. [/quote] Bengals will get the profit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turningpoint Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 There's really no solution except raise property tax even further........ Also, i'm willing to bet the next time cincinnati builds a stadium, they'll be making it a really nice dome, so it can be used for multiple venues, and attract many more things than just football. Cincinnati dug their own ditch, now we gotta live in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BlackJesus| Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 [quote name='westside bengal' timestamp='1296431149' post='966657'] Why doesn't the stadium have a corporate sponsor name?[/quote] [b]Naming it [i]Paul Brown Stadium[/i] was one of the only things Mike Brown did right. [/b] [quote name='turningpoint' timestamp='1296448949' post='966712'] i'm willing to bet the next time cincinnati builds a stadium, they'll be making it a really nice dome[/quote] [b]Lets hope not ... domes should be banned in the NFL.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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