Fake Punt and Eifert Incompletion

[The Left Hand of Frerotte]

Two things from yesterday's game that angered me and I need some further explanation on. 

1) The fake punt by the Ravens in which they got the first down.  First, was it actually a fumble?  CBS did a brilliant job all day on not being on top of showing replays so I didn't get a great look at it but I thought he was down short of the first down marker.  Second, if a player fumbles the ball but then regains possession, doesn't it go back to the original spot where the ball was fumbled (i.e. no forward progress on a fumble?).  

2) The Eifert incomplete pass it total horseshit.  If anything, it was a fumble that was picked up by Whitworth in the endzone.  He obviously had possession and broke the plan.  Call him down or call it a fumble -- just don't see how that's an incomplete pass.  

 

EDIT: Just saw there's another thread on Eifert's incomplete pass so you can disregard that.  

[whodey365]

It was a fumble on the fake punt. I guess you can advance a fumble if the player that fumbled is the one that recovers. Can't advance a fumble out of bounds. My interpretation of what the ref said. 

[Hooky]

I thought the spot was bad regardless of the fumble.

Eifert had a bad day. The other incompletion he had that he dropped inside the 5 looked like he was held or pushed when the ball got there. He should've caught it though and can't count on the refs to call anything. But he was mugged.

[esjbh2]

TV claimed that if the player who fumbled re-gains possession the spot is where he re-gained possession, not where he fumbled.  So although you can't advance it after repossession, you can advance it while fumbling.  That is not what I thought the rule was.  I thought it was spotted where he fumbled it.  Another stupid rule IMHO...so you can keep kicking the ball down the field to advance it, and then jump on it in the endzone...should be where you fumbled it IMHO.

[Khatmandude]

Even so, the ball was short of the 30-yd line after the recovery, the first down was the 30 yd line.....should have been a turnover on downs, refs blew the call and Marvin failed to challenge the call.  If you look at the reply, the ball was recovered almost sideways in orientation, almost parallel with the 30 yd line.  Definitely not on or across the 30 yd line.  

And what was up with the replays yesterday.....there were barely any shown.  

I"m of the opinion that the Eifert non catch was a good call.  Under the current rules, it was called appropriately.  

[scharm]

Lap and Co.  had to confirm the rule during the broadcast and came back thinking it was the correct call.     The spotting of the football would have been nice to see replays or a challenge to see how close it was.      Not sure it would have been a winnable challenge but the replays shown were tough to see.

 

 

[Orange 'n Black]

The rule is, apparently, that on that particular play, ONLY the ball carrier can recover a fumble for his team, and he can advance it on a fumble. If he had been down first, or anyone else had recovered it, it was Bengals ball. Just a really unlucky coincidence. 

[sparky151]

It was a 4th down play so the Dave Casper "Holy Roller" rule applies (also in the last 2 minutes of the half). The ball was fumbled. If a teammate had recovered it for the Ravens the ball would have gone back to the spot of the fumble (short of the line to gain) but since it was recovered by the fumbler, he gets forward progress to where he was down by contact. It was ruled correctly.

I think the Bengals were screwed out of a TD on the Eifert catch.

 

[EnglishBengal]

My thinking is, compare it to the Gresham TD in New Orleans last year.  He caught the ball, crossed the line, didn't have full control and then he fumbled it, before recovering it in the end-zone.  It was ruled a TD.

Wasn't Eifert's TD of the same scenario (after Whitworth recovered the loose ball in the end-zone)?

[F.Cleveland]

I have no quarrel with the idea that the fumbler can advance their fumble.  I do dispute the spot.  He recovered it short of the 1st down and then pulled it forward.  The spot looked off to me.

The main issue with Eifert's catch is when he becomes a runner.  Apparently it's a judgement call as to when he becomes a runner so I call bullshit.  If that exact play happened in the middle of the field it would have been a fumble. 

[Big Alice]

Even so, the ball was short of the 30-yd line after the recovery, the first down was the 30 yd line.....should have been a turnover on downs, refs blew the call and Marvin failed to challenge the call.  If you look at the reply, the ball was recovered almost sideways in orientation, almost parallel with the 30 yd line.  Definitely not on or across the 30 yd line.  

And what was up with the replays yesterday.....there were barely any shown.  

I"m of the opinion that the Eifert non catch was a good call.  Under the current rules, it was called appropriately.  

The non-catch was the right call.   The fumbled fake punt was, as well.  Watching it over and over again (thanks DVR, fuck you CBS), I wanted the recovery to be short of the 30.  It just wasn't.  He dropped the ball on his way down and then - in a single motion - scooped it up while he was laying just past the line to gain.  Both plays were just dumb luck that broke the Ravens way.  

And both of them indicate just how close the Bengals were to completely blowing this game open.

If CBS is going to stick three guys in the booth, you'd think at least one of the meatheads would be half decent.  Then I had to suffer through Marshall Faulk, Michael Irvin, and Deion Friggin' Sanders on Gameday Final.  Who in the blue hell thinks that's entertaining or informative?  It's a bad time for sportscasting in general.  I blame ESPN.

FWIW, I didn't love the 4th down call.  I thought Marvin should have kicked the field goal to go up three scores.  On the ensuing possession, Dalton blew it.  After the initial completion, the Bengals obviously had a play called - but Dalton changed the formation.  When everyone started to flipping sides, I guess the coaches figured they'd already burnt a few seconds, so they would get the play run quickly and have time for two more plays.  Six seconds was a tick or two too little.  Only managing to run three plays in that situation is unforgivable.  They've got to do better. 

However, the mathematicians who claim the Bengals left 6 (or 10) points on the field at the end of the half have it wrong.  If the Bengals had kicked the field goal on 4th down, the chances of getting the ball back with field position before the end of the half are next to zero.

Once last observation... The Dalton pick was one of only three or bad throws on the day.  However, I put that mostly on A.J. Green - and not because he didn't break up the interception.  I believe Dalton intended it to be to Green's back shoulder.  When the ball left Dalton's hand, Jimmy Smith hadn't gotten his head around.  Had Green cut the route short and high pointed the ball, Smith would have continued right on past him.  It was the right read.  Green had one-on-one coverage with no safety help, Dalton and Green just had different things in mind.

 

 

[|SF2|]

The non-catch was the right call.   The fumbled fake punt was, as well.  Watching it over and over again (thanks DVR, fuck you CBS), I wanted the recovery to be short of the 30.  It just wasn't.  He dropped the ball on his way down and then - in a single motion - scooped it up while he was laying just past the line to gain.  Both plays were just dumb luck that broke the Ravens way.  

And both of them indicate just how close the Bengals were to completely blowing this game open.

If CBS is going to stick three guys in the booth, you'd think at least one of the meatheads would be half decent.  Then I had to suffer through Marshall Faulk, Michael Irvin, and Deion Friggin' Sanders on Gameday Final.  Who in the blue hell thinks that's entertaining or informative?  It's a bad time for sportscasting in general.  I blame ESPN.

FWIW, I didn't love the 4th down call.  I thought Marvin should have kicked the field goal to go up three scores.  On the ensuing possession, Dalton blew it.  After the initial completion, the Bengals obviously had a play called - but Dalton changed the formation.  When everyone started to flipping sides, I guess the coaches figured they'd already burnt a few seconds, so they would get the play run quickly and have time for two more plays.  Six seconds was a tick or two too little.  Only managing to run three plays in that situation is unforgivable.  They've got to do better. 

However, the mathematicians who claim the Bengals left 6 (or 10) points on the field at the end of the half have it wrong.  If the Bengals had kicked the field goal on 4th down, the chances of getting the ball back with field position before the end of the half are next to zero.

Once last observation... The Dalton pick was one of only three or bad throws on the day.  However, I put that mostly on A.J. Green - and not because he didn't break up the interception.  I believe Dalton intended it to be to Green's back shoulder.  When the ball left Dalton's hand, Jimmy Smith hadn't gotten his head around.  Had Green cut the route short and high pointed the ball, Smith would have continued right on past him.  It was the right read.  Green had one-on-one coverage with no safety help, Dalton and Green just had different things in mind.

 

 

Totally agree we most certainly only left 3 points out there but as you stated, it would have made it a 3 possession game which is huge.

They never should have already called another play on the last drive of the half.  We had 2 timeouts.  Gio gets 9 yards to the 50, clock is running,...you have to immediately call a time out.  There were only 26 seconds left at that point.  By the time you get everyone to the line you have already wasted a plays worth of time.    With one timeout left at the 50  we could have CALMLY run 3 passing plays in an attempt to at least get in field goal range.   That is just bad clock management. 

[Hackettj22]

For anyone who DVR'd the game, also take a close look at the "incomplete" pass to AJ in the back corner of the end zone. I think it is very close and actually lean towards him being in. Again, no replay or acknowledgement of how close it was by the CBS crew. Also think that because of a defensive penalty, nobody on the bengals staff cared to take a closer look either.

[Bengals1181]

For anyone who DVR'd the game, also take a close look at the "incomplete" pass to AJ in the back corner of the end zone. I think it is very close and actually lean towards him being in. Again, no replay or acknowledgement of how close it was by the CBS crew. Also think that because of a defensive penalty, nobody on the bengals staff cared to take a closer look either.

https://t.co/mI2IrEdkvQ

[T-Dub]

That ref crew was ridiculously bad.  That's the best the NFL can do? 

[Big Alice]

Again, CBS sucks.  The entire telecast was awful.  The fact that they didn't run replays of the A.J. Green catch or of Marvin Jones' close call on the sideline is unforgivable.  Remember the one where Jones got up saying, "I was in"?  

Coaches in the booth are not allowed to employ any additional equipment when considering a challenge.  They are totally reliant on the television broadcast and the stadium scoreboard.  This is supposed to protect the "competitive balance".  The home staff surely wasn't going to run a replay of anything that might hurt their team, so the only help the Bengals could have gotten was from CBS.  Thanks for nothing, assholes.

[Bengals1181]

Again, CBS sucks.  The entire telecast was awful.  The fact that they didn't run replays of the A.J. Green catch or of Marvin Jones' close call on the sideline is unforgivable.  Remember the one where Jones got up saying, "I was in"?  

Coaches in the booth are not allowed to employ any additional equipment when considering a challenge.  They are totally reliant on the television broadcast and the stadium scoreboard.  This is supposed to protect the "competitive balance".  The home staff surely wasn't going to run a replay of anything that might hurt their team, so the only help the Bengals could have gotten was from CBS.  Thanks for nothing, assholes.

 

https://t.co/1RDcuHKXRY

[Hooky]

That ref crew was ridiculously bad.  That's the best the NFL can do? 

Obvous PI on the ball Eifert dropped. Obvious push off AGAIN by Smith on the last TD. Tacking a yard on to a couple of rats' runs in key plays like fake punt.

[T-Dub]

Obvous PI on the ball Eifert dropped. Obvious push off AGAIN by Smith on the last TD. Tacking a yard on to a couple of rats' runs in key plays like fake punt.

 

I'm biased so I try not to focus on who is benefiting so much as how the ref crew operates. Lots of flags, refs constantly in a huddle, looking at each other all WTF, general fiddlefucking around between plays spotting the ball or moving the chains.  Game & play clock BS. The kind of job they are doing in general, in other words.  Some people blame their union but for w/e reason it's like there's no accountability.  Pereira or Carey or some other Mike does a song & dance trying to tell us travelling was the right call because the receiver was in foul territory and *jazzhands*

 

Nothing to be done for it but I'm amazed me how much folks will gamble on the whims of this not-quite-the-WWF officiating.

[|SF2|]

Mehh, the refs sucked but they did call 13 penalties on Baltimore for 116 yards.  Kind of hard to say they were being Homers for the Ravens. 

As far as Steve Smith Sr, the guy gets away with this bullshit against everyone.  Its the same thing with New England and their multitude of illegal pick plays they run every fucking game and get away with.  Worse is the Patriot ball washer announcers calling them "rub plays".  The only thing going on is Bellicheat is rubbing one off in their faces while they scream like school girls.

[T-Dub]

Kind of hard to say they were being Homers for the Ravens.

 

Easier to say they are not good refs in general.  "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity" - Heinlein

 

Problem with that being the league can correct for stupidity, yet..  *shrug*  At any rate they were grabassing & 60,000 screaming fans are going to influence your thinking when you don't know WTF you're trying to do anyway.  I do get suspicious when phantom calls keep extending drives that would have otherwise stalled & basically ended a game early.  Ohhh hands to the face! 1st down! Stay tuned folks! *10 minutes of ads*

[|SF2|]

 

Easier to say they are not good refs in general.  "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity" - Heinlein

 

Yeah, more my thinking, not very well called game and CBS intentionally not replaying close plays is a bit concerning to me.   I worry more about that to be honest. 

[PatternMaster]

Not to mention the holding call that got over turned, I've never seen that happen before in a NFL game. The refs were definitely trying to keep Baltimore in the game with there calls in the 2nd half, they only made calls against the Ravens when it was blatantly obvious. Bad game by the refs, no consistency at all....besides being consistently bad. 

[ColdWarrior]

I've heard more sports pundits today disagreeing with the Eiffert call.  What ever happened to "making a football move" after the catch???   He clearly had possession and dove for the goal line.  

Everybody in the booth was focused on the "control through contact with the ground" rule instead of the obvious football move he made to dive for the goal line (after catching the ball and touching both feet down before turning to dive).

i was glad to hear pundits say the same thing on ESPN today.  That play was a catch, dive, and touchdown before what appeared to be the defender's heel knocked the ball loose.  The ball was coming loose before he hit the ground, but was in his control over the goal line.  

Sure feels better with a "W" though!

[VonBlade]

My favourite moment was the challenge of an incomplete pass to gain a few yards. By ruling it incomplete it should have been, as BAB said in the gameday thread, Intentional Grounding.

But the refs were biblically awful yesterday, so it is what it is.

Also fuck CBS.