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Lets talk about Jackson Carman


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3 minutes ago, membengal said:

you should 100% note that Volson at least knows how to pick up a stunt. And finish a block. 

 

Oh, duly noted.  I said he knows what he is doing out there which is way better than Carman.  I want to see him hold up against starters before I get excited. 

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2 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

He was a rotten draft pick then

 

... Any time your evaluation starts with reviewing a police report (rape) and a medical report (back), probably best to continue looking -- even if he is a hometown kid. 

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I think Volson will actually ramp up his play to meet the level of competition.

Yeah, somewhat of a man among boys with the competition but he was finishing his blocks in the defensive backfield rather

than our own backfield like Flounder "Fat, Drunk and Stupid" Carman.

Flounder already got our second string quarterback concussed against scrubs, I scares the bejesus out of me thinking

what he would do to our first string quarterback against real pro defensive linemen.

 

 

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Time to face the reality that Carman is just not a good NFL guard.

 

Now that he slimmed down some, he's even weaker. He gained no agility and just gave up strength. He's either a slow learner or doesn't have the work ethic to revise his play and adapt. He's regressing for fucks sake! #TeamVolson 

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Carman is proportionally top heavy (wide above the waist with smaller legs) and guards are ideally supposed to be bottom heavy (wide thighs and big ass that extends past shoulders). As a result he has no base when pushed backwards and his body physics works against him.

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What I'm getting from all this is that the team sees Carman as having far more potential.  Volson looked good but I can't blame them for not immediately changing the depth chart based on 20 minutes of early preseason tape against Arizona's scrubs.  

 

So yeah, yknow, take a deep breath.  Volson probably earned himself earlier snaps next week & it'll sort itself out.

 

The fact there's even competition for a starting guard spot is a good thing.

 

 

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If we based all our views on the preseason Jamar Chase last year would have been thoroughly criticized too.

 

Oh wait you all did that too, then he made everyone who talked that kind of talk look foolish

 

Can we all just breathe and wait till he's at least playing next to Johna and Kara's?

 

I mean the Browns always win the preseason too.

 

Calm down.

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this is a wild thread all the sudden

 

Volsen got tossed to the ground by a 3rd stringer, and 70% of his snaps he was double teaming a 3 man rush of practice squad players.

 

he got beat roughly half the time he had a solo assignment. against absolute cuts.

 

Carman got duped on a stunt, had the hold, he is giving up real estate a bit too fast against the pass rush, but held his own for the most part.

 

both of these guys are getting their first snaps of live football this year, Volson is making adjustment to the nfl.

 

its pretty clear that the talent volson faced in college was inferior to what he just faced in preseason game 1. the smallest of dudes got by him with ease it seemed. 

 

it seems pretty clear people either think that helping double team on a 3 man rush of scrubs means you are talented and smart and have great worth ethic, or didnt really watch the snaps these guys took.

 

I have run through them twice over now.. ill do it again and list them out for you all.

 

casue the comments in here are some "i definetly had a few bears and didnt watch them play at all, but i heard carman get called for a hold and saw him get beat that one time so he sucks, and i saw volson help the center push a guy back so he is great." type of reactions in here

 

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Quote

i definetly had a few bears and didnt watch them play at all,

 

TF91HtT.gif

 

listened to the 2nd half on the radio in the car but sober tyvm

 

Not sure who they might keep as a 3rd TE.  Maybe just Hurst and Sample if he's really g2g in 2 weeks.  Whoever was out there didn't help the OL much either.

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JACKSON CARMEN SNAPS: Including all called back plays, every single snap

 

2 Pointless from evaluation standoint double team plays

21 Neutral plays, nothing terrible or bad, nothing great or impressive

4 bad plays or fuck ups

6 impressive or good quick thinking/smart plays. 

 

Play by play in order:

 

1.    Good run block, pushed his guy back about a yard and to outside.
2.    Pass block, after about 1 second center comes over to double as well, defender went no where.
3.    Great run block, pushed his guy back about 7 yards
4.    Mediocre run block, his guy shed him and was second to runner who was just tackled, but his guy didn’t make the play.
5.    Poor pass block, got pushed back into QB zone making him scramble, LT got beat LT man made the sack
6.    Fine pass block, defender went left, handed off to LT after 2 seconds
7.    Good passblock, stopped defender
8.    Got fooled on a stunt, QB still got ball off but almost took a hit, a QB pressure I assume on stats
9.    Went second level for run block to right side, play was blown up in backfield so was pointless anyway
10.    Solid play, pass block defender went left, handed off to LT then came back to help double team with center, neither defender got through.
11.    Poor pass block, defender got buy after about 1 second of engagement, QB threw ball away
12.    Solid pass block, god pushed back more than youd like but kept defender engaged and stay with him
13.    Good run block, defender got no where.
14.    Poor pass block, defender got by after about 1 second of engagement, qb scrambled as two defenders got through left side.
15.    Neutral ass block, push defender who backed off so he didn’t have to do much
16.    Neutral or good, didn’t touch many players be was going second level to block, play went behind him for TD around end but holding by someone on end.
17.    Was Solid pass block, im guessing they called the hold because his hand went outside the shoulder pad when the player spun???? It was no where near the action but is what it is. 
18.    Solid passblock, god pushed back about a yard, qb plenty time to throw
19.    Solid play, run block went to second level found a guy to get a hand on.
20.    Good pass block, pushed defend who then dropped into coverage, helped center push defender to ground.
21.    Good pass block, pushed his guy to ground, kept him there
22.    Good run block pushing defender to middle.
23.    Fine pass block, didn’t have to do much as there was a crowd.
24.    Good pass block
25.    Fumbled snap, nothing really happened
26.    Run block, went second level to creat block wall to outside, runner got hit by inside guy who went behind carman. I cant decide how this should have gone. Its clear he was going to set a wall of blocks with others, and the defender went inside, seems the runner got forced back inside instead of going the outside of the blocking wall. But I don’t know the play.
27.    Pass block, guy went inside, center took over carman then went to help LT on his block, solid execution.
28.    Run block, pulled to right side and pushed defender back a few yards. Good play.
29.    Mediocre run block, his guy went outside but that forced the runner back inside, so his guy altered the running path but didn’t get to the runner.
30.    Mediocre pass block, no one to guard, hopped outside got a hand on edge rusher who was headed towards qb. Didn’t do anything wrong but didn’t have much impact on the play, feels like LT took wrong guy leaving carman without a target.
31.    Double with center
32.    Solid play, pushed defender down and jumped out to block second level for screen pass, pass was a bust though.
33.    Fine pass block, pushed defender inside, defender left him to go to RG, so he chipped helping center block his man.


VOLSON SNAPS: So 15 of his 35 snaps he just double teamed with someone because the defense was bringing 3-4 3rd stringers tops. if you want to get hyped about this and pretend its good play worth noting, i dont know what to so, im not saying its bad either, its just absolutely pointless for any evaluation, especially given the scheme and talent of the opposition at this point in the game.

 

15 Scrapped plays for evaluation purposes, as mentioned above.

12 Fine plays, essentially neutral, nothing impressive nothing bad. 

4 Negative plays (again, against cuts and practice squad players)

4 Good impressive plays (again, against cuts and practice squad players)

 

Each Snap in order:


1.    Went second level on run block, put hands on a guy, solid
2.    One touch on defender who went outside so he chipped on centers man, solid
3.    Good play again, first defender pushed outside switched to second guy stopping him going inside. Maybe the best play in pass pro from either player in terms is smarts and quick decision making.
4.    Double teamed with center
5.    Looks like he kinda false started which I think caused a balance issue making him get pushed to the ground, otherwise he just got shoved to the ground super easily, which seems unlikely.
6.    His defender went outside passed him off and blocked a LB on run play, solid play.
7.    Double with center in a cluster
8.    Got pushed off balance a little tackle took over as guy went outside.
9.    Fine run block, run to opposite side.
10.    Fine pass block, stayed in front, but couldn’t get his hands on defender, looked off balance due to hands getting swatted down over and over but I don’t think he was.
11.    Double teamed with tackle
12.    Doubled with center

13.    Good pass block, his guy made it to fumble though, but he ended up getting the fumble recovery from his guy, so good, bad, good.
14.    Doubled with center
15.    Triple teamd with center and rg
16.    Doubled with center until another defender hit center
17.    Ok pass block his guy got right past him but to the outside and pass was already thrown as qb was rolling out.
18.    Doubled with center
19.    Average run block, guy got good first step and he got him up near neck standing him up play was around to outside so it didn’t matter much
20.    Got beat on pass block qb scrambled for a first down eventually
21.    Pulled to right, looked slow dunno if he got tripped or chipped or not, put hands on second level guy as player was tackled so didn’t do much overall
22.    Fine run block
23.    Doubled with center
24.    Doubled with center

25.    Went second level poor block on LB who dragged him and still made play on opposite side.
26.    Doubled with center
27.    Went second level got beat by LB easily.
28.    Doubled with center
29.    One hand on guy center defended then hand on second rusher, ball was thrown by then, no complaints but didn’t effect much either way.
30.    Doubled with center
31.    Didn’t do much got hand on LB as play was blown up in backfield
32.    Doubled with center
33.    Fine pass block
34.    Doubled with center
35.    Got beat but pass got off for TD
 

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I watched volson thought he did ok for getting his feet wet. One thing that can’t be taught is sweetness and heart. I saw him bust his but over to recover fumble. I saw him try and make sure he found someone to block. I think Carmen is probably better athlete but we are not unlocking whatever it is he struggling with.  I am curious how volson does playing against higher level players. Lineman have to process communicate on fly . I saw volson do many of these things . 
 

all this said right now I want burrow to not get hit after snap because guard can’t stop  pass rush. Right now I would put volson in just based on that and tell him you get beat hold or cut the pass rusher.Allen was hurt because Carmen .

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19 minutes ago, Mikeslumina said:

I watched volson thought he did ok for getting his feet wet. One thing that can’t be taught is sweetness and heart. I saw him bust his but over to recover fumble. I saw him try and make sure he found someone to block. I think Carmen is probably better athlete but we are not unlocking whatever it is he struggling with.  I am curious how volson does playing against higher level players. Lineman have to process communicate on fly . I saw volson do many of these things . 
 

all this said right now I want burrow to not get hit after snap because guard can’t stop  pass rush. Right now I would put volson in just based on that and tell him you get beat hold or cut the pass rusher.Allen was hurt because Carmen .

 

So he hustled to a fumble but multiple C level talent players got the best of him on 20% of the snaps that he wasnt just helping block with someone else is not a problem?

 

were you looking away all of the plays carman went second level and found guys to block? si there a play a missed where carman didnt do anything when he could have found a guy to block?

 

you said a bunch of words here, and you pointed out one play where volson ran after a fumble (the guy he was blocking beat him to it, by the way, but since the defender had sloppy hands volson is a heart fill player with the sweetness?!?!?!

 

Are you saying that the list of plays i have above is incorrect? if so which ones?

Or are you just saying you like Volson better regardless of performance, so no matter how he performs again terrible competition he has.... sweetness and heart? and thats all you care about?

 

Follow up, is there something from carman this year that has you questioning his sweetness and heart? also what is sweetness?

 

not specifically about you here, but im getting a strong "carman sucked last year, so i dont care about anything except he sucks to me and i want the other guy no matter what" vibes from all of the people in this thread.

 

dont take this as harsh or rude response from me.. ill be glad to change my opinion, we all just want burrow protected, i hate clemson, i have no reason to root for carman, just imo, objectively, carman is by far more skilled and even if by a small margin, outplayed volson, who played against state farm agents.

 

also im more than happy to concede that its preseason game one, and people feel volson will make big strides the more reps he gets and carman wont, thats at least a point of view that makes sense, but carman didnt looks lost, he wasnt on the ground every other snap, he goofed on the stunt play, but if volson gets a first preseason game pass, i feel carman working with completely different guys around him, is fair to make one mental mistake as well.

 

so i dunno

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, GoBengals said:

the list of plays i have above

 

One thing that stands out to me is that Volson's first bad (red) play doesn't happen until the 20th rep, whereas Carman's bad plays come at rep 5, 8, 11, and 14. Now that could be coincidence, or a sign that Volson's issue was more conditioning or fatigue -- whereas Carman got "better" after a bunch of reps (was that because they switched to worse backups by then? Or did his extra weight wear down the opponent?) 

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1 minute ago, BlackJesus said:

 

One thing that stands out to me is that Volson's first bad (red) play doesn't happen until the 20th rep, whereas Carman's bad plays come at rep 5, 8, 11, and 14. Now that could be coincidence, or a sign that Volson's issue was more conditioning or fatigue -- whereas Carman got "better" after a bunch of reps (was that because they switched to backups by then? Or did his extra weight wear down the opponent by then?) 

 

agreed they had opposite perforamnces, carman worked his way into playing better, and volson made more mistakes over time.

 

honestly volsons snaps are pointless, its against trash that ran no blitz packages at all, but the bad plays he had were surprising against such bad competition.

 

carmen made some early bad plays, but was also playing with "strangers" as none of the other 4 starters were on the field, so its possible communication was sloppy early and they all settled in?

 

they both played against mediocre talent, so id have loved to see dominant performances, im not saying carman is good, im just saying he is best equiped to start with the other starters, two smart vets at his side certainly curb his weakness of a learning curve. while volson couldnt overpower some dudes who looked like highschoolers compared to his size..  neither performance was impressive, Volson seemed out of his league, carman seemed confused or outsmarted a couple times.

 

smart people around you can make you smarter, people around volson wont make his stronger, etc.

 

thats where im at.

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4 hours ago, BlackJesus said:

Time to face the reality that Carman is just not a good NFL guard.

 

Now that he slimmed down some, he's even weaker. He gained no agility and just gave up strength. He's either a slow learner or doesn't have the work ethic to revise his play and adapt. He's regressing for fucks sake! #TeamVolson 

 

BRUH, tell us how you really feel!!!  😂😂😂😂

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Go no issues from me, it’s a preseason game. Just stay healthy and get better. I watched volson, as I never saw him play. These guys were scrubs, so very small sample size. I am curious to see both guys in with starters and against better competition. Have great night thanks for replying. I have to watch these games by myself and Twitter hates us Bengal fans . I love this site, always have . 

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Whether Carman's reps were against "better" (still 2nd/3rd stringers) or not, Volson deserves more reps and the opportunity to see what he can do earlier in the game.  Carman was bad last year and he looks the same or worse after one preseason game.  Yes, it's one preseason game, but we have an entire season to add to his profile.  Whereas Volson, this was the first time most of us have seen him live and he looked smarter (passing of stunts) and like he had more heart (finishing plays) that we've seen from Carman.  Small sample size, yes, but let's see how it goes next week.  At least we can see some hope in Volson. 

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https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/lists/cincinnati-bengals-stock-up-stock-down-preseason-opener/

Stock down: OL Jackson Carman

USATSI_17035392.jpg

Raj Mehta-USA TODAY Sports

Carman had a brutal start and was eventually the only “starter” left on the field in the first half, which said quite a bit about what the coaching staff saw. While he entered camp with better habits than he did as a rookie, Carman is still too upright and stiff in his technique. He was struggling with the backups and making notable mistakes, so despite his second-round status, he might not be getting first-team reps much longer.

 

 

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Stock up: OL Cordell Volson

USATSI_18259867-e1654046960952.jpg

Syndication: The Enquirer

Fourth-round rookie Cordell Volson was the big exception. Like Hill, he wasn’t always perfect. But he was notably better than Carman on most snaps at left guard, whether it was shooting off the line and getting into the linebackers quickly or sizing up his guys in pass-blocking. It’s nearly impossible to imagine he isn’t taking first-team reps soon.

 

 

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