|Tigers Johnson| Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='Bengals1181' post='639252' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:49 PM']me thinks you need to go re-read some article and figure out what exactly you're talking about, because what you think happened, isn't what happened. They were privy to it, problem is it took the player approving it to go through, which didn't happen. Once Rogers rejected it, there was another route to go, which the Lions fucked up. Doesn't take a genius to understand.[/quote] No, if the teams had completed the trade before 4 P.M. it was not up to Rogers.....After 4 P.M. Rogers had to agree to push payment of the bonus back and he would not do that if he was gonna be traded to the Bengals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='bengalfan_00' post='639227' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:02 PM']1530 just reported that the Robertson trade will be announced later today....Mikey must have stepped out.[/quote] sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote]Early in the day, the Lions were in discussions with the Browns about a possible trade involving Bodden but the Browns were hesitant. Not only did they not want to give up Bodden but preliminary talks with Shaun Rogers' agent, Kennard McGuire, about a possible contract restructuring didn't go well. As a result, that deal fell apart. The Buffalo Bills, another team that had shown strong interest in Rogers, decided to go in another direction and were trying to work a trade for Jacksonville's Marcus Stroud, which they eventually did. The Bengals entered the picture later in the day and the two teams worked out a deal for the two draft picks. Because the trade wasn't completed by 4 p.m., the Lions were responsible for paying Rogers a $1 million roster bonus that was due on Saturday (because Rogers would still officially be on the Lions roster at the start of the day). To work around that, the Lions and Bengals agreed to a provision in the trade that said the Bengals would pay the Lions the $1 million. In addition to that, if Rogers subsequently failed his physical, Rogers' rights would revert back to Detroit and the Lions would have to reimburse the Bengals the $1 million. The Lions agreed to those terms. According to both sources, the league office rejected those terms because there was no language in the Collective Bargaining Agreement that allowed for an accurate accounting of that money for salary cap purposes. That's what led to all the confusion Friday afternoon. Both teams had agreed to the deal - and that's what was being reported - but there was really no deal. While the Lions and Bengals were pleading their case to the league office to agree to the contract, the Browns -- one of Cincinnati's division rivals -- got wind of the impending trade. It's not completely clear who initiated the contact, but Rogers' agent was in touch with the Browns and the long-term contract situation no longer appeared to be a problem. The Lions were then contacted and asked if they were still interested in doing business with the Browns. Leigh Bodden was back on the table and the Lions leaped at it. But there was still the issue of the $1 million roster bonus and that wasn't going to change. However, Rogers was willing to do something for the Browns, one of the league's up-and-coming young teams, that he wasn't willing to do for the Bengals -- agree to postpone the due date of the roster bonus. That effectively made it a non-issue with the league and opened the door for the trade with Cleveland.[/quote] [url="http://www.mlive.com/lions/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1204521314236420.xml&coll=6"]Link[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='sparky151' post='639230' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:07 PM']For the record, all player contracts are available to all teams. When a contract is agreed to, it has to be approved by the NFLPA and the league's management council as being in compliance with the CBA and league rules. They are kept on file and any registered agent or team can look at any player's contract. Teams are expected to know and comply with the cap rules. It was clear that if Rogers didn't adjust his contract the Lions were on the hook for his roster bonus. The Bengals were willing to make the deal before the roster deadline but wanted to be reimbursed if Rogers failed his physical, since that would happen after the bonus deadline. The repayment contingency on the bonus isn't allowed by the CBA and the league turned the deal down. [b]Rogers delayed payment for the Browns [/b]til after his physical so it wasn't an issue in their deal. Bottom line, the Bengals tried to sneak around the cap and got caught.[/quote] So, the fact that Rogers agreed to delay the bonus for the Browns (potentially not even aware it was going to be a problem when the initial deal was done with the Bengals) but not the Bengals is the Bengals fault, right? okey-dokey... what is the weather like in your little world? In-freaking-credible. There is a lot to blame Mike Brown for, no doubt, but to blanket lay blame at people's feet without actual knowledge of the situation or where blame truly lies is dishonest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='639259' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:58 PM']So, the fact that Rogers agreed to delay the bonus for the Browns (potentially not even aware it was going to be a problem when the initial deal was done with the Bengals) but not the Bengals is the Bengals fault, right? okey-dokey... what is the weather like in your little world? In-freaking-credible. There is a lot to blame Mike Brown for, no doubt, but to blanket lay blame at people's feet without actual knowledge of the situation or where blame truly lies is dishonest.[/quote] Indirectly, but that would go into years and years of losing and bad reputation as an organization.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='oldschooler' post='639248' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:32 PM']This part . . . The Bengals weren't try to sneak around anything. The Lions were. And it wasn't nullified because of the Bengals wanting repayment for the $1 million if Rogers didn`t pass a physical. It was vioded because it was after 4pm, which meant the Lions would have been on the hook for the million, but not if Rogers would agree to wait for payment, he wouldn`t wait for the Bengals, but would for the Browns. The Bengals didn`t fuck up the trade, the Lions and Rogers did. Then they bothgot a trade that they were happy with. All the Bengals got was fucked.[/quote] Umm, no. The Lions wanted to get the deal done before 4 pm so they wouldn't be on the hook for the roster bonus. Both sides were aware of the time pressure. The Bengals were willing to do the deal before 4 and pick up the bonus. The Bengals wanted insurance that if they did the deal before 4, and paid the bonus, that they could recoup the money if Rogers failed his physical. Option A was for Rogers to delay payment of the bonus for a day or two til after his physical. He was unwilling to do that if going to Cincinnati. Hence the Bengals demanded an indemnification clause in the deal that if Rogers failed his physical, the Lions would retroactively pay the bonus and the Bengals would get their cap space back. That isn't allowed by the CBA. Bill Ford is free to write Mike Brown a check on the side but cap space can't be transferred from one team to another like that. The league wouldn't approve the deal in that form and Detroit accepted Cleveland's offer with Rogers playing along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='bengaled' post='639253' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:49 PM']and that's total bullshit, too, so why in the hell don't you start telling it like it is? generally speaking, i have most of the players backs as i do most of the coaches, especially marvin lewis. i can't say that for mike brown, tho i was one of the first to give the old SOB props for the trade of rogers, that we now know was premature. i was also one of the few that advised waiting for the details to come out before we lashed out for the responsibility of it's failure. that has all played out and the details have now been reported. [b]if it ruffles your feathers that i dislike mike brown,[/b] so be it. he's more than earned my scorn.[/quote] I could give two shits about who you like or dislike, it has no bearing on me. But, as you supposedly preached Friday evening into Saturday, you need to re-read and verify your information before you make judgement against anybody. Based on the article that Tiger just posted I still don't see how that is the Bengals fault. Facts re-capped... Bengals would pay Detroit the $1 million signing bonus. If Rogers, failed physical Detroit would reimburse it as his rights would go back to Detroit. NFL said the CBA doesn't have anything regarding such an arrangement (which seems simple enough) so they declined it. Rogers refuses to push back bonus for even 3 days (which would have allowed the physical to occur). Browns come in offer Detroit a better deal. Rogers agrees to push back bonus to a later date. And, that is the Bengals fault how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='globetrotter' post='639250' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:36 PM']How many trades can the bengals publicly blow in 3 days?[/quote] [img]http://www.tootsie.com/image-sb/licks/howmany3.jpg[/img] [size=4]Bengals fans may never know.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='639263' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:06 PM']I could give two shits about who you like or dislike, it has no bearing on me. But, as you supposedly preached Friday evening into Saturday, you need to re-read and verify your information before you make judgement against anybody. Based on the article that Tiger just posted I still don't see how that is the Bengals fault. Facts re-capped... Bengals would pay Detroit the $1 million signing bonus. If Rogers, failed physical Detroit would reimburse it as his rights would go back to Detroit. NFL said the CBA doesn't have anything regarding such an arrangement (which seems simple enough) so they declined it. Rogers refuses to push back bonus for even 3 days (which would have allowed the physical to occur). Browns come in offer Detroit a better deal. Rogers agrees to push back bonus to a later date. And, that is the Bengals fault how?[/quote] It's the Bengals fault they made the deal contingent on something that isn't allowed in the CBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='sparky151' post='639271' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:28 PM']It's the Bengals fault they made the deal contingent on something that isn't allowed in the CBA.[/quote] for those who know better than I, does a situation have to be listed in the CBA to be permitted, or does the CBA only discuss unallowed moves? I ask, because as the league put it, its not that the move "wasn't allowed" but, rather "there was no language" in the CBA for what was trying to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='sparky151' post='639271' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:28 PM']It's the Bengals fault they made the deal contingent on something that isn't allowed in the CBA.[/quote] [size=5]Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBengal Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Enough about Rogers. The guy is a fat, lazy bum that beats up women and didnt want to play in Cincy anyway. I guarantee that we will look back at this trade and thank god that he went to the Browns and not the Bengals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='sparky151' post='639262' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:02 PM']Umm, no. The Lions wanted to get the deal done before 4 pm so they wouldn't be on the hook for the roster bonus. Both sides were aware of the time pressure. The Bengals were willing to do the deal before 4 and pick up the bonus. The Bengals wanted insurance that if they did the deal before 4, and paid the bonus, that they could recoup the money if Rogers failed his physical. Option A was for Rogers to delay payment of the bonus for a day or two til after his physical. He was unwilling to do that if going to Cincinnati. Hence the Bengals demanded an indemnification clause in the deal that if Rogers failed his physical, the Lions would retroactively pay the bonus and the Bengals would get their cap space back. That isn't allowed by the CBA. Bill Ford is free to write Mike Brown a check on the side but cap space can't be transferred from one team to another like that. The league wouldn't approve the deal in that form and Detroit accepted Cleveland's offer with Rogers playing along.[/quote] [quote]The Bengals entered the picture later in the day and the two teams worked out a deal for the two draft picks. [b]Because the trade wasn't completed by 4 p.m., [/b]the Lions were responsible for paying Rogers a $1 million roster bonus that was due on Saturday (because Rogers would still officially be on the Lions roster at the start of the day). To work around that, the Lions and Bengals agreed to a provision in the trade that said the Bengals would pay the Lions the $1 million. In addition to that, if Rogers subsequently failed his physical, Rogers' rights would revert back to Detroit and the Lions would have to reimburse the Bengals the $1 million. The Lions agreed to those terms. According to both sources, the league office rejected those terms because there was no language in the Collective Bargaining Agreement that allowed for an accurate accounting of that money for salary cap purposes. That's what led to all the confusion Friday afternoon. Both teams had agreed to the deal - and that's what was being reported - but there was really no deal.[/quote] The trade wasn`t done before 4pm. So the Lions would have taken the cap hit, unless Rogers agreed to take the payment later, which he did for the Browns. And wouldn`t do for the Bengals. The Bengals werent trying to get by the cap. The Lions were. The Bengals were willing to pay the Lions for the cap hit. But wanted the money back if Rogers didn`t pass a physical, which they and everyone else knew he would. So let`s recap, with the Bengals, the Lions would have had to take a $1 million cap hit, but would pocket the million. Because Rogers wouldn`t push payment back. And that`s the only way the Bengals could have paid him the million and taken the cap hit, is if Rogers agreed to delay payment. Which you said the Bengals tried to avoid and got caught. So I said that was stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='sparky151' post='639271' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:28 PM']It's the Bengals fault they made the deal contingent on something that isn't allowed in the CBA.[/quote] So, the CBA doesn't clearly deal with this issue and the Bengals made an attempt to make a trade that might even "push the envelope" of the CBA / cap ramifications - working in the grey area (... they got denied because it wasn't explicitly allowed). Wouldn't you think unless explicitly forbidden it would be implicitly allowed?? I would anyway - especially something as simple and common sense as this situation. So, it is their fault for skirting into the grey area of the CBA and getting called on it. I wander, if NE had made the same grey area stretch if the trade would have been declined by the NFL... Then, we have a posting (whole topic in fact) about why the Bengals won't ever sign big-time free agents because they don't know how to work in the grey area and manipulate the cap... So, they get blamed when they work in the grey area and get caught. and, they get blamed for not manipulating in the grey area on the cap... Damn, glad I'm not them. Doesn't look like they can win either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatorclaws Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Can we keep this thread about Robertson??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsdave985 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Really, is this conversation about a player who was at no point ever a bengal going to stop sometime soon. The whole thing was fucked up, who really cares who fault it was. Its now about 3 days since the trade fell threw, I think thats enough time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eva4ben-gal Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Back the topic this thread was started about... It's a lot of if's I know, but if the Robertson trade does go through and we do get Odom and McCree I will be very happy with this offseason - best ever? Utecht would be an added bonus. Getting Odom and Robertson, while not sure-fire studs, would be a welcome addition and an upgrade on our d-line IMO. It would also allow the team to switch seemlessly between a 3-4 and 4-3 at will should we find that NT we're needing in the draft. All I can imagine is a front four of Odom, Robertson, Peko, Geathers, giving us two pure pass rushers and two high-motor DT's that can collapse the pocket. Then in a 3-4 it could go Robertson, NT to be named later, Peko with Geathers moving to OLB. I know our LB situation is still questionable at best but in best case scenario, Pollack and Thurman returning could go a long way to shoring up that position. Plus, if our D-line is solid going into the draft we can go after guys like Keith Rivers or other LBs on the first day of the draft. Imagine a front seven of Odom, Peko, Robertson, Geathers - Thurman, Brooks, Pollack/Rivers in the 4-3 and Robertson/Fanene, Robertson/Draft pick, Peko - Pollack/Jeanty, Thurman/Rivers, Brooks, Geathers in the 3-4. It would be too good to work out that way, but the fact that it is a slight possibility right now is very exciting. I know a lot of things have to happen for this scenario to play out and as a Bengal fan of 20 + years I know there is a very strong possibility none of it will play out but it does appear there is a plan Marv and Co. are sticking to this year and I am excited to see how it plays out. There's my two cents on free agency. See ya'll at draft time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' post='639284' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:49 PM']Back the topic this thread was started about... It's a lot of if's I know, but if the Robertson trade does go through and we do get Odom and McCree I will be very happy with this offseason - best ever? Utecht would be an added bonus. Getting Odom and Robertson, while not sure-fire studs, would be a welcome addition and an upgrade on our d-line IMO. It would also allow the team to switch seemlessly between a 3-4 and 4-3 at will should we find that NT we're needing in the draft. All I can imagine is a front four of Odom, Robertson, Peko, Geathers, giving us two pure pass rushers and two high-motor DT's that can collapse the pocket. Then in a 3-4 it could go Robertson, NT to be named later, Peko with Geathers moving to OLB. I know our LB situation is still questionable at best but in best case scenario, Pollack and Thurman returning could go a long way to shoring up that position. [b]Plus, if our D-line is solid going into the draft we can go after guys like Keith Rivers or other LBs on the first day of the draft.[/b] Imagine a front seven of Odom, Peko, Robertson, Geathers - Thurman, Brooks, Pollack/Rivers in the 4-3 and Robertson/Fanene, Robertson/Draft pick, Peko - Pollack/Jeanty, Thurman/Rivers, Brooks, Geathers in the 3-4. It would be too good to work out that way, but the fact that it is a slight possibility right now is very exciting. I know a lot of things have to happen for this scenario to play out and as a Bengal fan of 20 + years I know there is a very strong possibility none of it will play out but it does appear there is a plan Marv and Co. are sticking to this year and I am excited to see how it plays out. There's my two cents on free agency. See ya'll at draft time.[/quote] Odds are if we go defense it will likely be Rivers anyway. And personally, I don't want him at 9. I could live with it lower, but not at 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hint of Snow Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Are we there yet? Where's my DT? I want an oompa loompa now!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumall Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='dacow' post='638914' date='Mar 3 2008, 07:47 AM']Actually I posted on the other thread and I love this move. Still hate Mikey and think he needs to go before we can do so much more but this is great. Anyone who thinks this is just average don't know shit. This dude is way above average. It means 4-3 but so what. Actually, I think he COULD play end in a 3-4. This ain't no John Thornton move.[/quote] Dacow, I think he also could play end in a 3-4.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoBengal Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 With the Jets dropping large coin on Pace and Woody, could that be a sign that the Robertson deal is for all intents and purpose done? Inquiring minds want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='ChicagoBengal' post='639320' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:49 PM']With the Jets dropping large coin on Pace and Woody, could that be a sign that the Robertson deal is for all intents and purpose done? Inquiring minds want to know.[/quote] The suspense is killing me ! :anticipate: :quiver: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaltonGreen Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='gatorclaws' post='639281' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:45 PM']Can we keep this thread about Robertson???[/quote] seriously yeah wtf are we talking about rogers for????? this thread is about robertson not the fuckd up trade that happened....there is other threads for that .......................now where is that robertson announcement of a contract signed????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 The longer this goes on the more it makes me think its going to fall through...hopefully marvin realizes how much this trade needs to get done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='639263' date='Mar 3 2008, 03:06 PM']I could give two shits about who you like or dislike, it has no bearing on me. But, as you supposedly preached Friday evening into Saturday, you need to re-read and verify your information before you make judgement against anybody. Based on the article that Tiger just posted I still don't see how that is the Bengals fault. Facts re-capped... Bengals would pay Detroit the $1 million signing bonus. If Rogers, failed physical Detroit would reimburse it as his rights would go back to Detroit. NFL said the CBA doesn't have anything regarding such an arrangement (which seems simple enough) so they declined it. Rogers refuses to push back bonus for even 3 days (which would have allowed the physical to occur). Browns come in offer Detroit a better deal. Rogers agrees to push back bonus to a later date. And, that is the Bengals fault how?[/quote] like i said before, they should have been wise enough to realize the impotance of the 4PM deadline, which they didn't. they also should have been wise enough to know the language used would void the contract. since they didn't, it bears support to the argument mike could use some help in these matters...either a qualified capologist (his daughter's obviously not) OR a qualified GM (he's obviously not). either or both would have made certain the wording in the contract offer wouldn't have been voided and shaun rogers would be a member of this team. they fucked this one up, royally...mainly due to their lack of knowledge about such affairs, and no one to turn to for help.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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