Michael Johnson and Carlos Dunlap continue their domination at defensive end

[Bengals1181]

It was actually a calm spring afternoon in 2012 when Michael Johnson said that he and Carlos Dunlap "can be one of the best tandems in the league." They ended that season with a combined 17.5 quarterback sacks (11.5 by Johnson), 21 additional hits on the quarterback, 66 quarterback hurries, four forced fumbles (all Dunlap) and five passes batted down at the line of scrimmage.

When you think of teammates at a certain position, your instinct is to navigate towards the offense. There's disappointment with BenJarvus Green-Ellis and Giovani Bernard at running back, but not because of their individual performances. Alright, we're disappointed in Green-Ellis' lack of short-yardage production that's forced Cincinnati to change with quarterback sneaks and quick route patterns. But they've been alright.

Tight end looks good with a pair of play-makers entering their first year as a duo. Vontaze Burfict and Vincent Rey are developing into a tackling duo, aren't they? For a brief period of time, A.J. Green found Marvin Jones, but that development has stalled out as Jones has only six receptions and 77 yards receiving in the last three games.

But there is no set of teammates in Cincinnati like Michael Johnson and Carlos Dunlap at defensive end. No, that's not to downgrade the production and relevance of others; it's just that Johnson and Dunlap have been that good. Dunlap has already signed a contract extension through 2018 and Cincinnati would be wise to figure their finances on getting Johnson signed long-term as well.

"I told Johnson, ‘I’m here for the long haul'. Hopefully we can get you and Geno here for the long haul, too. If not, we have one more year to reach all our goals and me and you both get to Hawaii with Geno'", Dunlap said after signing his extension. Atkins has already signed a six-year deal, leaving Johnson as the lone free agent out of the trio for the next six years.

Their production together as one of the league's best defensive end tandem continues to raise the bar.

Currently, Johnson and Dunlap have combined for 10 quarterback sacks (led by Dunlap's seven), 27 hits on the quarterback, 57 pressures, ten passes knocked down at the line of scrimmage and six forced fumbles (four by Dunlap). Johnson's tipped pass against the Cleveland Browns forced an incomplete as a wide receiver roamed free in the end zone that would have led to the easiest touchdown in NFL history.

"I came to the sideline and everybody was excited," Johnson said. "I just thought it was a tipped pass. I didn't know somebody was wide open. Just turned out like that. We got each other's back like that."

"You rush and try to beat your guy," Johnson said. "You see him getting ready to throw and get your hands up. Most have to look when they finally decide where they're going to throw the ball. And if they look in my direction, the ball is probably coming that way. "When you do that, good things happen."

Only four teams (Eagles, Cardinals, Vikings, and Chiefs) have more passes knocked down at the line of scrimmage than Cincinnati.

It's not just their production against the pass either. Dunlap has vastly improved his run defense, complementing Johnson as articulated here by our own Jake Liscow.

This could be the final year that Dunlap and Johnson will play together. Johnson, who failed to negotiate a deal with the Bengals (the same deal that was handed to Dunlap) will be one of the league's top free agents in March. He'll receive a significant deal and leave Cincinnati, if the Bengals are unable (or unwilling) to tie that much money into their defensive line. Wallace Gilberry and Robert Geathers each signed three-year deals before the season started.

Instead of looking forward, as we Bengals fans tend to do during mid-season (draft, free agency), we might as well enjoy this relationship. It could be over soon.

 

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2013/11/23/5136892/michael-johnson-and-carlos-dunlap-continue-their-domination-at

[Le Tigre]

This is a special group. Keep it together. And no, Margus Hunt is not MJ.

[EnglishBengal]

It all comes down to money.

[spicoli]

 And no, Margus Hunt is not MJ.

 

just because he's not right at this very moment, doesn't mean he won't be....or even better.

 

it's not like MJ came into the league a complete player.

[Le Tigre]

Spic: go back and read about MJ coming out of GT...he has become who we thought he would. The contents of the product were known.

Hunt is a grab-bag of ingredients...none of which are known-either on draft day, or now. A maybe, maybe not. A good NFL player or a situational one.

The known commodity only costs money. The unknown may cost more than just loot.

[spicoli]

Spic: go back and read about MJ coming out of GT...he has become who we thought he would. The contents of the product were known.

Hunt is a grab-bag of ingredients...none of which are known-either on draft day, or now. A maybe, maybe not. A good NFL player or a situational one.

The known commodity only costs money. The unknown may cost more than just loot.

 

I'm just saying, have a little faith in that staff.....they've earned the trust IMO.

 

look no further than Wallace Gilberry as all the proof needed.

 

can't pay everybody top dollar....nor is there a need to.

[Le Tigre]

Yeah, you are right. And I am getting ahead of myself. I am enjoying this season so much, why get caught up in the next one before it's time?

[spicoli]

Yeah, you are right. And I am getting ahead of myself. I am enjoying this season so much, why get caught up in the next one before it's time?

 

 

:drinks:

 

good talkin to ya LT.

[WRAPradio]

 

just because he's not right at this very moment, doesn't mean he won't be....or even better.

 

it's not like MJ came into the league a complete player.

 

 

Both MJ and Hunt are the same age, 26...only one is a star at this point.  Hunt may be come a better player, but I think the combination of his age and lack of experience will make that difficult.  The Bengals need to do everything they can within reason to keep MJ.

[T-Dub]

Excuse my cherry-picking but Benji's short-yardage production is down largely because everyone knows that's why he's on the field. So we go to a shotgun on 3rd & 2 to counter..

Back on topic - right now I wouldn't be mad if they franchised MJ again. He might be, though.

[Le Tigre]

:drinks:
 
good talkin to ya LT.

And you, my friend.

[spicoli]

 

 

Both MJ and Hunt are the same age, 26...only one is a star at this point.  Hunt may be come a better player, but I think the combination of his age and lack of experience will make that difficult.  The Bengals need to do everything they can within reason to keep MJ.

 

again, why so little faith in the staff and the players they choose? 

 

next man up....they're pretty damned good at that, in case you haven't noticed. 

[alleycat]

Spic: go back and read about MJ coming out of GT...he has become who we thought he would. The contents of the product were known.

Hunt is a grab-bag of ingredients...

 

I don't remember it that way at all.  I don't think most other teams did either, which is probably reflected in the fact that he wasn't taken until the 3rd round.  He was considered very inconsistent, and also somewhat limited in his game.  Something you could rightly call a "grab-bag of ingredients." Like Hunt, he was an unproven guy with a lot of athelticism and upside.  It was up to a team to develop him...

 

This analysis from nfldraftscout sums up pretty well what I remember to be the consensus on MJ.

 

Compares To: SIMEON RICE, ex-Tampa Bay -- Johnson has a lanky, wiry frame that gets him in trouble on running plays, on which he can't sink his pads well enough to prevent double teams from washing him out. Also like Rice, he seems too enamored with making the sack and will forget a lot of his other assignments, especially gap responsibility. Some "experts" compare him to the Giants' Mathias Kiwanuka or even to Julius Peppers -- neither comparison can be further from reality. Johnson's game isn't well-rounded. Johnson disappears for long stretches and that shouldn't happen for a player with his athletic ability and rare-sized frame. His physical attributes are what a team is going to drool over when they take him much earlier than his production indicates he should go on draft day.

[WRAPradio]

 

again, why so little faith in the staff and the players they choose? 

 

next man up....they're pretty damned good at that, in case you haven't noticed. 

 

 

I have very little doubt Hunt will be a good player.  I have lots of doubt he'll be as good as MJ considering they're both the same age and MJ has been playing football (at all levels) for probably 10+ years more than Hunt.  One thing people need is experience and by the time Hunt gets that type of experience he'll be pushing 30 if not older.

[Big Alice]

Ha!

It's AMAZING how the success of a team can skew the perceived ability of its players....

Michael Johnson had 23 sacks in his first four seasons and is a reasonably good run defender.

Justin Smith had 28 sacks in his first four seasons and was one of the best run defending ends in the league.

Granted, Smith was taken in the first round, but he was run out of town on a rail. Yet Michael Johnson, playing alongside the BEST defensive tackle in football, is seen as a 'star'.

That's tripe. Michael Johnson is the most replaceable starter on the Bengals defensive line. Carlos Dunlap is in a totally different stratosphere. He's already surpassed Johnson's sack production in one less year while playing almost exclusively on the left side - rushing into the quarterback's face.

If Dunlap is ever moved to the right side and allowed to rush the blind side, LOOK OUT. Why hasn't he? Because Michael Johnson's not stout enough to play the run against gigantic right tackles.

Don't get me wrong. I'd LOVE to see the Bengals keep this defensive line intact. There's a limit to how much money can be thrown at a single position group, and Michael Johnson is the weakest link. He'll get an enormous payday somewhere else and then fade off into obscurity.

[Big Alice]

 
 
I have very little doubt Hunt will be a good player.  I have lots of doubt he'll be as good as MJ considering they're both the same age and MJ has been playing football (at all levels) for probably 10+ years more than Hunt.  One thing people need is experience and by the time Hunt gets that type of experience he'll be pushing 30 if not older.

Margus Hunt, if he gets significant snaps, will be surrounded by so much talent that he will put up good numbers almost by default. Frostee Rucker, Jon Fanene, and Wallace Gillberry have proven that over the last couple seasons. The question is whether he can be a dominant force. I don't see any reason to think not. In his limited playing time so far, he's looked strong and agile enough. It just seems like a matter of teaching him proper technique.

Also, he's big enough to slide inside on passing downs. Most 'athletic' ends can't do that effectively. The fact that the Bengals have a trio in Dunlap, Gillberry, and Hunt, make them that much harder to deal with.

[HairOnFire]

Don't get me wrong. I'd LOVE to see the Bengals keep this defensive line intact. There's a limit to how much money can be thrown at a single position group, and Michael Johnson is the weakest link. He'll get an enormous payday somewhere else and then fade off into obscurity.

 

Great post, but you lost me at the end.

 

I'll argue it's damn near impossible to throw too much money at the very position group the team is built around. So while I can agree that MJ was the easiest to replace of the FA trio (MJ, Carlos, Geno) it would be hard to justify allowing MJ to leave as a FA if he doesn't get an enormous contract offer from another team AND doesn't give the Bengals a chance to match.

 

I think the Bengals ultimate goal, then and now, is to keep all three.

 

Further, I think Hunt was drafted as cheap insurance should a new deal not be worked out in a few months, not as a replacement for MJ due to the last negotiation falling short last year.

 

Best case scenario MJ signs a Dunlap-sized contract of his own.

[alleycat]

 

Great post, but you lost me at the end.

 

I'll argue it's damn near impossible to throw too much money at the very position group the team is built around. So while I can agree that MJ was the easiest to replace of the FA trio (MJ, Carlos, Geno) it would be hard to justify allowing MJ to leave as a FA if he doesn't get an enormous contract offer from another team AND doesn't give the Bengals a chance to match.

 

I think the Bengals ultimate goal, then and now, is to keep all three.

 

Further, I think Hunt was drafted as cheap insurance should a new deal not be worked out in a few months, not as a replacement for MJ due to the last negotiation falling short last year.

 

Best case scenario MJ signs a Dunlap-sized contract of his own.

 

+1

 

And in fact, I think that's just what will happen, because I think that's what he was already offered.  It's not coincidence that Dunlap got an urgent call just after MJ signed his franchise tag.  I'm thinking they told both guys, "we're going to pay you well, but not out-of-this universe. We like what we've built here and we want to keep it together." MJ was in a much better bargaining position last year than he is now, at least in terms of sacks # perception, and so though he may have been willing to roll the dice last year, I think he'll be less-so-inclined this year.  I also think his price will come down somewhat, and the difference will be negligible enough for him that he'll see that taking the Bengals' original offer remains in his best interest.

 

As for Hunt, I'll quote Leonard Cohen:

 

I saw a man leaning on his wooden crutch, He cried out to me "you must not ask for so much."

And a pretty woman leaning in her darkened door, she cried to "hey, why not ask for more?"

 

I love having him, not just as insurance and to put in rotation, but for the versatility he'll eventually provide as a guy who can really bring it as a pass-rushing DT as well.

[Jamie_B]

 

I don't remember it that way at all.  I don't think most other teams did either, which is probably reflected in the fact that he wasn't taken until the 3rd round.  He was considered very inconsistent, and also somewhat limited in his game.  Something you could rightly call a "grab-bag of ingredients." Like Hunt, he was an unproven guy with a lot of athelticism and upside.  It was up to a team to develop him...

 

This analysis from nfldraftscout sums up pretty well what I remember to be the consensus on MJ.

 

Compares To: SIMEON RICE, ex-Tampa Bay -- Johnson has a lanky, wiry frame that gets him in trouble on running plays, on which he can't sink his pads well enough to prevent double teams from washing him out. Also like Rice, he seems too enamored with making the sack and will forget a lot of his other assignments, especially gap responsibility. Some "experts" compare him to the Giants' Mathias Kiwanuka or even to Julius Peppers -- neither comparison can be further from reality. Johnson's game isn't well-rounded. Johnson disappears for long stretches and that shouldn't happen for a player with his athletic ability and rare-sized frame. His physical attributes are what a team is going to drool over when they take him much earlier than his production indicates he should go on draft day.

 

 

 

IIRC the knock on MJ coming out was that he would take plays off.

[turningpoint]

Yeah, you are right. And I am getting ahead of myself. I am enjoying this season so much, why get caught up in the next one before it's time?

 

 

Exactly, also we need to realize, is johnson worth more then Hunt and another top level talented player? Johnson contract means less money to go around. It possibly means, Zeitler and Gresham walk in FA because we don't have the cap room for them, do we want that? No.

[Dautcom08]

 

 

Exactly, also we need to realize, is johnson worth more then Hunt and another top level talented player? Johnson contract means less money to go around. It possibly means, Zeitler and Gresham walk in FA because we don't have the cap room for them, do we want that? No.

 

Huh?  Zeitler?  This is only his 2nd year he's got to have at least 2 left on his contract.

[BengalsOwn]

That's tripe. Michael Johnson is the most replaceable starter on the Bengals defensive line. Carlos Dunlap is in a totally different stratosphere. He's already surpassed Johnson's sack production in one less year while playing almost exclusively on the left side - rushing into the quarterback's face.

 

Just to emphasize your point: 49 games played for Dunlap and 74 games played for Johnson.
 

One thing about the two players is that Dunlap has shown a tendency to get injured (has missed 10 games in his career), whereas Michael Johnson looks to only have missed one game in his career.

[|BlackJesus|]

I'd let MJ know right now that he will be tagged again ... and that he'd be wise to sign the same deal Dunlap got before he gets hurt like Atkins did and comes much cheaper.

[|Dr Tarzan|]

 

Just to emphasize your point: 49 games played for Dunlap and 74 games played for Johnson.
 

One thing about the two players is that Dunlap has shown a tendency to get injured (has missed 10 games in his career), whereas Michael Johnson looks to only have missed one game in his career.

 

You never know how that is going to play out in the future.  Take our CB situation.   The Bengals couldn't give franchise money to both JJoe and Hall.   They made the safe bet by choosing Hall in that he was less of an injury risk through the first contract.  JJoe has missed a handful of games the past 3 years and Hall hasn't finished 2 out of 3.   Some players take longer to mature into their bodies, they start out being easily injured but as they mature they toughen up.  Frostee was a graphic example.  Always injured his first 3 years and in danger of being cut.  But he put in a full 16 his last year here and another 15 or 16 for Cleveland the next year.  

 

Conversely,  some guys start breaking down earlier in their careers and others play at a high level till THEY choose to retire, despite "wear and tear".  Freaks like Barry Sanders and Steve Smith.

[Elijah15]

Id take dunlap over mj.... that's why dunlap is resigned. MJ is good and he's not worth how much he demands