Bengals1181 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Exactly, and that's because Gruden had zero imagination when creating the plays in the first place. Also,it takes a great offensive mind to not devise new plays for a play-off game, so we get stomped at home, one-and-done style. Hopefully Jackson's philosophy changes this. I don't know that I'd say that. Gruden was plenty creative, and maybe too much for his own good. He basically did a little bit of everything, but had no bread and butter staple plays that they mastered as a unit. IMO Gruden's flaws as a young coordinator exactly matched his experience. He came from the Arena League where its a passing league to WR's. In hindsight, given his background it shouldn't be any surprise that his two flaws as an OC were: lack of commitment to the running game, and misuse of his tight ends. Two factors of the game that are mostly non-existent in Arena ball. There's not much running in the arena league, and they don't have tight ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I think the problem is that we do not have a guy that can consistently work within the first down marker. You can't send every player deep. A lot of the time with all the pressure that is being produced their has to be a hot read and since the TE will be working on a linebacker, this designation falls to them. If you look at NE, Gronk was able to consistently go down the field because Welker was working the middle and the short area's. Seemed like Eifert was more designated for that short area stuff, while Gresham was able to get the ball thrown his way quite a bit down the middle of the hashes on that post. Another thing is that Eifert was lining up what looked to be on the blind side quite a bit. If 18 is going through progressions, his first two reads are going to be AJ or Marvin, whichever is lined up in the Z position and then Jermaine. I'd be willing to bet that Tyler worked almost exclusively on the right side of the field at ND and always worked his way left. Now he has to adjust to working his way right. It seems like a small thing, but it matters. I expect to see some really big things from him this upcoming year. Wouldn't be surprised if he leads the team in touchdowns. That catch against the Lions was a thing of beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Gruden may have been creative, but he also sure didn't seem to want to review what worked and go back to it. Again, thinking back to Pittsburgh I and that long TD pass to Eifert...how many more routes like that were called for Eifert the rest of the year? I sure don't remember too many. I think he was under-utilized by Gruden...the same Gruden who often after games confessed to letting the game situations overwhelm him in turns of play-calling. I suspect that Gruden would call what was most familiar to him when things got tough, leading to those games where AJ was targeted a ton and no one else was much. I look forward to seeing what Hue will do with the TEs myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I look forward to seeing what Hue will do with the TEs myself. x2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothD Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Gruden may have been creative, but he also sure didn't seem to want to review what worked and go back to it. Again, thinking back to Pittsburgh I and that long TD pass to Eifert...how many more routes like that were called for Eifert the rest of the year? I sure don't remember too many. I think he was under-utilized by Gruden...the same Gruden who often after games confessed to letting the game situations overwhelm him in turns of play-calling. I suspect that Gruden would call what was most familiar to him when things got tough, leading to those games where AJ was targeted a ton and no one else was much. I look forward to seeing what Hue will do with the TEs myself. It wasn't a TD. He was stopped at the 12 or 13. Gio ran it in 2 plays later. That play wasn't called ever again. They sent everyone deep and Gio had just burnt them on a short pass in front of the LBs. LBs had their eyes on Gio for the short stuff, WRs ran sluggo routes, and Eifert got the spacing he needed in between the LBs and DBs. Beautiful play. Again, too bad we never saw it again :20: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I don't know that I'd say that. Gruden was plenty creative, and maybe too much for his own good. He basically did a little bit of everything, but had no bread and butter staple plays that they mastered as a unit. IMO Gruden's flaws as a young coordinator exactly matched his experience. He came from the Arena League where its a passing league to WR's. Exactly. Seemed like if we ran 50 plays, 44 of them were different. The Broncos and most other successful teams ran some form of this. That is a blatant illegal pick play. The best offenses in the league run it 10-15 times a game, I'm not sure I've seen us run that in 3 three years. It reeks of Marvin Lewis "well that's illegal and we play the right way" bullshit. The same attitude that gets us beat up by Pitt every year. We have elite athleticism among our receiving options and instead of scheming to get someone open, they rely on all the options reading, reacting and running perfect routes to beat coverage. Fucking run someone across the field, take out the guy covering Hawkins or AJ and pick up 6 goddamn yards. Along those lines, maybe someone with more knowledge of offensive line play can correct me but do we ever take out DL players knees? I've seen it happen to us dozens of times, the Eagles ran it consistently, the play call is for a quick strike (screen or slant) and the OL on the action side of the play dive immediately at the DL's knees, chop them down so they can't get a hand up or make a play, and the QB releases the ball immediately. It seems dirty to me, but I see it a lot, and I never see us do it. For 3 years there was way too much trying to outsmart and not enough just executing better. This core is going to get one more season in its current form. Hopefully Hue is the guy to build off the elaborate foundation and refine them into consistent success. Hone them to doing less things but with far more success.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Exactly. Seemed like if we ran 50 plays, 44 of them were different. The Broncos and most other successful teams ran some form of this. That is a blatant illegal pick play. The best offenses in the league run it 10-15 times a game, I'm not sure I've seen us run that in 3 three years. It reeks of Marvin Lewis "well that's illegal and we play the right way" bullshit. The same attitude that gets us beat up by Pitt every year. We have elite athleticism among our receiving options and instead of scheming to get someone open, they rely on all the options reading, reacting and running perfect routes to beat coverage. Fucking run someone across the field, take out the guy covering Hawkins or AJ and pick up 6 goddamn yards. Along those lines, maybe someone with more knowledge of offensive line play can correct me but do we ever take out DL players knees? I've seen it happen to us dozens of times, the Eagles ran it consistently, the play call is for a quick strike (screen or slant) and the OL on the action side of the play dive immediately at the DL's knees, chop them down so they can't get a hand up or make a play, and the QB releases the ball immediately. It seems dirty to me, but I see it a lot, and I never see us do it. For 3 years there was way too much trying to outsmart and not enough just executing better. This core is going to get one more season in its current form. Hopefully Hue is the guy to build off the elaborate foundation and refine them into consistent success. Hone them to doing less things but with far more success.. Good post. As I said a few times during the game, I want our offense to look a lot like Denver's. I would say our skill players are on their level (except at QB). But I still see Denver receivers getting open a lot where it seems we have to make a lot of contested catches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Good post. As I said a few times during the game, I want our offense to look a lot like Denver's. I would say our skill players are on their level (except at QB). But I still see Denver receivers getting open a lot where it seems we have to make a lot of contested catches. Thats because in most cases (except over the top) our receivers are running to space and sitting down on the route. Denver aka Manning is throwing passes to a spot and the receivers are running to that spot and catching the ball is stride. Our TEs are rarely ever moving when they catch the ball unless they are moving to the sideline, are making the catch and immediately step out of bounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Good post. As I said a few times during the game, I want our offense to look a lot like Denver's. I would say our skill players are on their level (except at QB). But I still see Denver receivers getting open a lot where it seems we have to make a lot of contested catches. Most of that is on Dalton. The one area where he still needs to grow in Major ways is to look off receivers. Manning and Rodgers are geniuses at this. Of course, looking to dummy options require your O-Line to give you time, which requires establishing a run game and pass blocking that can doesn't rely on a under 2 second passing release to look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Thats because in most cases (except over the top) our receivers are running to space and sitting down on the route. Denver aka Manning is throwing passes to a spot and the receivers are running to that spot and catching the ball is stride. Our TEs are rarely ever moving when they catch the ball unless they are moving to the sideline, are making the catch and immediately step out of bounds. hate that. Maybe one guy a play, but for the most part, I'd NEVER have my receivers stop moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Good post. As I said a few times during the game, I want our offense to look a lot like Denver's. I would say our skill players are on their level (except at QB). But I still see Denver receivers getting open a lot where it seems we have to make a lot of contested catches. I'd like a mix of the two Super Bowl teams. Power running like Seattle, but more "scheming guys open for easy catches" like Denver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 In fact most scouting reports had compared him to Gresh coming out. eifert's a guy i put a lot of homework into last year. i don't remember a single scouting report comparing him to gresham. perhaps you could provide me with a few of those most scouting reports. they should still be available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 eifert's a guy i put a lot of homework into last year. i don't remember a single scouting report comparing him to gresham. perhaps you could provide me with a few of those most scouting reports. they should still be available. x2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I don't know that I'd say that. Gruden was plenty creative, and maybe too much for his own good. He basically did a little bit of everything, but had no bread and butter staple plays that they mastered as a unit. IMO Gruden's flaws as a young coordinator exactly matched his experience. He came from the Arena League where its a passing league to WR's. In hindsight, given his background it shouldn't be any surprise that his two flaws as an OC were: lack of commitment to the running game, and misuse of his tight ends. Two factors of the game that are mostly non-existent in Arena ball. There's not much running in the arena league, and they don't have tight ends. that's an interesting breakdown. TBH i never watched the arena league brand of football much. given what you say, that makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The PatternMaster Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Now that we're in the offseason, I was wondering what everyone thought of our first round pick. I'll admit, I was underwhelmed about the impact he ended up having on our offense this season. He caught the first ball of the season for the Bengals, yet only caught 38 more the rest of the year. While I don't think the team utilized him effectively (especially in the redzone), I also think he really needs to toughen up. He needs to get stronger and realize that in the NFL there is going to be contact, you just have to fight through it. What are your thoughts on Eifert? What did you think of his season and how do you see him developing going forward under a new offensive coordinator? I thought it was a wasted pick when we took at #21, as we drafted Charles last year barely used him. Certain members of the board called me names and told me how Gruden had some master plan to use 2 TE sets like NE, however as we clearly see Dalton is far from being on Brady's level so just because you draft two TE's high in the draft it doesn't mean you will get the same results that the Pats have gotten using that offensive scheme. I don't think that Eifert is a bad player, I just don't trust the coaching staff to use him correctly. Eifert could have been a more dynamic player but he wasn't given the opportunities to do so, he was severly under used because he already had a Pro Bowl player at this position and when he was on the field Dalton rarely threw him the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I thought it was a wasted pick when we took at #21, as we drafted Charles last year barely used him. Certain members of the board called me names and told me how Gruden had some master plan to use 2 TE sets like NE, however as we clearly see Dalton is far from being on Brady's level so just because you draft two TE's high in the draft it doesn't mean you will get the same results that the Pats have gotten using that offensive scheme. I don't think that Eifert is a bad player, I just don't trust the coaching staff to use him correctly. Eifert could have been a more dynamic player but he wasn't given the opportunities to do so, he was severly under used because he already had a Pro Bowl player at this position and when he was on the field Dalton rarely threw him the ball. Keep in mind neither Gronk nor Hernandez were first rounders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 eifert's a guy i put a lot of homework into last year. i don't remember a single scouting report comparing him to gresham. perhaps you could provide me with a few of those most scouting reports. they should still be available. I went and googled for the one i saw that said that again and cant seem to find it, not surprising since the draft is over, "most" was probably not the word I was looking for but I did see the comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The PatternMaster Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Keep in mind neither Gronk nor Hernandez were first rounders. They were both 2nd rounders, that's still pretty high in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 They were both 2nd rounders, that's still pretty high in the draft. Aaron Hernandez was a 4th round pick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Aaron Hernandez was a 4th round pick... Yep, because there were concerns about his off field activities. I wonder how that turned out? :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Hernandez and Gronk were both 1st round talents who fell for other reasons. 1181 accurately notes Hernandez's issue, and Gronk fell due to injury concerns (which have also born out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 My guess if Hernandez had zero issues and was available when NE picked in the first round, they don't take him because they already had Gronk. Drafting a perceived 1st round talent in the fourth is dirt cheap. The fact remains we used 2 first round picks at the TE position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 huh? Marvin doesn't scheme the offense he leaves that completely to his OC. Marvin doesn't ask the team to ignore the TE. The only thing they did wrong was Gresham should have had Eiferts role and Eifert should have had Greshams role. Gruden misused both of the TEs. HUH? BOTH of them should have been more widely utilized as pass catchers, This whole "You can't play TE for the Bengals unless you can block " shit needs to stop whether it's true or not. These are both FIRST round picks that are more accustomed to being difference makers in an offense. Use them as such. If the offensive line NEEDS them all the time to block then draft different offensive linemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 HUH? BOTH of them should have been more widely utilized as pass catchers, This whole "You can't play TE for the Bengals unless you can block " shit needs to stop whether it's true or not. These are both FIRST round picks that are more accustomed to being difference makers in an offense. Use them as such. If the offensive line NEEDS them all the time to block then draft different offensive linemen. I agree. What I mean is Eifert should be the one running deeper routes. Gresham is better served on the shorter routes as he can run guys over and break tackles when he gets some momentum behind him. Eifert made that catch in the steelers game and then made that deep ball TD vs the Lions and was hardly used downfield at all after that. I like getting the ball in Gresham's hands right away near the LOS so he has a chance to get some momentum and potential blocking in front of him. Some of the dump off screens they've thrown to him had been fantastic in the past. I will always prefer Eifert deep than Gresham deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 My guess if Hernandez had zero issues and was available when NE picked in the first round, they don't take him because they already had Gronk. Drafting a perceived 1st round talent in the fourth is dirt cheap. The fact remains we used 2 first round picks at the TE position. If Hernandez had 0 issues then he would have been our first round pick. It has been mentioned before how much our scouts loved his pure talent, but he was removed from the draft board due to being a terrible person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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