Hobson's Choice: Raid second tier

[oldschooler]

[quote][size=5][b]Hobson's Choice: Raid second tier [/b][/size]
February 5, 2009




[i][b]Q:[/b] When Marvin said that the Bengals were "going to be proactive in free agency," should we take it to mean that they are only going to re-sign their own players? Over the last few years they've missed out on premier players like Warren Sapp, Joey Porter and Shaun Rogers, all of whom could have given instant credibility to this team. Conventional wisdom has the Bengals taking a center sometime in the draft, but with all of the talk of them drafting a LT at No. 6, that would give them a rookie LT and rookie C on a line that didn't play well last year. Scary thought. Why wouldn't they try and go after LT Jordan Gross, DE Julius Peppers, DT Albert Haynesworth, RB Brandon Jacobs while signing only a couple of their guys back? They won't be able to address all of their needs through the draft. They need to get a premier player from a winning team to show everybody that they mean business in 2009, don't you think?
[b]--Anthony, Aliso Viejo, CA[/i]

ANTHONY:[/b] I'm not so sure. One of the questions poised by puzzled and fired Browns boss Phil Savage was how did they go 4-12 even though Rogers had such a good year.

The Jets also went apple crazy in free agency last year and all it got them was a fired coach. The Cardinals lost arguably their best defensive player in free agency, linebacker Calvin Pace, to the Jets, and still made the Super Bowl. The Jets grabbed nose man Kris Jenkins from Carolina and the Panthers still made the playoffs.

I agree, though, that free agency has to be a supplement. The way the Bengals approach it, they must absolutely sign second-tier free agents to complement the guys they always make their priorities:

Draft picks and their own free agents. They have so many holes, they can't dump it on one or two guys.

I took Marvin to mean they will have to be active in free agency to replace guys they expect to lose in free agency. But that doesn't mean replacing T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Shayne Graham, Stacy Andrews and Eric Ghiaciuc with Brandon Jacobs, Julius Peppers and Jordan Gross.

All those guys, plus Haynesworth, are going to command damn near record deals that would no doubt chew up more than the Bengals want to give up on the salary cap to one player.

Do they have to sign Brandon Jacobs at an Action Auction price to show they mean business? What if they re-sign Cedric Benson with sane money, draft a running back, re-sign Graham and safety Chris Crocker, and eye a bunch of middle tier guys in free agency like wide receiver Devery Henderson, center Jason Brown and fullback Terrelle Smith.

OK, you want a difference-maker. So do I, plus three acres on Pemaquid Point. But do you drop a load on Terrell Suggs and then don't have enough to get the numerous other parts you need?

Just being smart about it instead of opening the wallet would show you mean business enough, I would think.

But now we're playing hot stove with a blindfold.

If you don't sign Houshmandzadeh (I think they must), what do you do with that money? Go after a speed guy like Henderson and hope Andre Caldwell gives you what Houshmandzadeh did?

Do you decide to pluck a center out of the richest center draft in recent memory? If you do, then you don't sign a veteran like Brown, right? (And word is he's looking for $7M a year. No thanks.)

And whatever you do, you don't sign the Colts' Jeff Saturday, a center we all admire but at 295 pounds you've got a 33-year-old version of the guy everyone wants to get rid of in Ghiaciuc because he's not big enough for the AFC North nose tackles.

If you're going to sign Gross, why not just keep Levi Jones? Gross is going to be too expensive and isn't special enough when you've already got two potential left tackles in Anthony Collins and Andrew Whitworth.

Get a left guard, you say, if Whitworth moves to left tackle? That's more like it. There will be someone out there, like old friend Mike Goff or Russ Hochstein. If you're nervous about a rookie center (join the club), put him next to two veterans like Bobbie Williams and Goff/Hochstein/Somebody Like That.

And, look, this all could end up like baseball. Anybody been looking at that ticker on the MLB channel of unsigned players lately?

It looks like lineups from the 2002 All-Star Game. Yeah, the top players are going to get paid. But in this brutal economy, who else will? You have to spend the money. Spend it on four or five solid guys instead of two. That would them you mean business, too.





[i][b]Q:[/b] Just read your comments on the offensive line and was hoping for some clarification. The way you "hypothetically" structure the line with Whit at left tackle, Collins at right tackle, Bobbie Williams at right guard, who fills left guard and does this conversation even include center? Are we shopping for another center? Is there one here we think we can move in, or is it still Ghiaciuc's job to lose? Sorry, but the only place I don't see potential turnover is Bobbie Williams at right guard. I am really hoping for an insight as to other total processes that could answer the whole line question instead of just parts. I see us starting next season with no one playing at their position but Bobbie, two different tackles, new left guard, new center. Is this feasible? Or is there another plan? Can Levi play right tackle? Maybe stay healthier against lower speed? Can Levi play either guard?
[b]--Tony, Independence, KY[/i]

TONY:[/b] All solid questions and you are right. It sounds like they want to keep Whit on his left side, so Bobbie looks like the only guy that stays in his spot. And sure it's feasible because they only have one place to go and that's up.

I'm kind of piggy-banking on the previous question here when it comes to center. All signs point to them moving on from Ghiaciuc and they do like the young centers they have here in Kyle Cook, Dan Santucci and Andrew Crummey. In fact, they were ready to play Cook in the game he suffered a season-ending toe injury in warmups.

But that would be just like starting a rookie because they virtually have 0.0 game experience. So whether they draft one or not it would seem to be necessary to sign a veteran guard to help who is ever in there because it looks like it could be a young guy. And it could very well be one of those young guys already here.

(Note: Ghiaciuc may get the best center deal out there. He may not fit this division, but he can play in the league.)

What would be nice is a veteran that can play both guard and center but before you start talking about Baltimore's Jason Brown, the word is that he's looking for $7 million per year. Well, he's a good player but he ain't Steve Hutchinson.

This is like the conversation about a guy like left tackle Jordan Gross. OK, good player. But you're going to overpay him at a spot where you've already got a guy you think can play until you draft a left tackle. Hell, for all we know Whit could an elite left tackle. He did pretty well there in a little place called the SEC

Still, you could pick a left tackle as early as this year with the sixth pick. And you're probably better off drafting your own guy at some point (it doesn't have to be this year) rather than overpaying somebody else's guy. Plus, you figure even if they draft a guy now they would play Whit or Anthony Collins there until the kid was ready. And I just don't see them moving Jones anywhere. He's a left tackle, albeit one with injury question marks.





[i][b]Q:[/b] Would Darren Sproles not fill multiple huge needs for the Bengals? He is a dynamic punt and kick returner, and he would be a great fit for the Bengals offense. I think everyone would agree he is not an every-down back. But who is an every-down back in today's NFL? The Bengals offense was at its best under Carson Palmer when Chris Perry was getting 10-15 touches a game. Sproles is an extremely effective receiver out of the backfield, which Carson would love because when the protection breaks down he can't shrug guys off like Roethlisberger or scramble for yardage like some of the more mobile QBs in the league. Sproles, who has a penchant for making big plays and an ability to affect field position both on special teams and on offense, seems to be an ideal free agent target for the Bengals that would greatly benefit not only the offense, but the defense as well. Is this a pipe dream, nightmare, or something in between?
[b]--Jeff S., Toledo, OH[/i]

JEFF:[/b] None of the above. Just a good solid question that is on the minds of many in Bengaldom. Sproles may be an every-down back, but he may want to be paid like one.

I agree with everything you say. I think the guy is a terrific weapon. I saw him personally win a playoff game in Indy a year ago when he took a 56-yard screen pass to the house for the Chargers.

But at 5-6, he can't be your bread-and-butter guy and I don't know how much you can pay a guy like that and still get a bell cow. Maybe you overpay Sproles and draft your complementary running back. The thing about Sproles is the punt and kick return factor, a spot where the Bengals have been damn near negligent in the draft. It can no longer be ignored.

Or, maybe you re-sign Benson, draft a back, and continue to see what you get out of rookie James Johnson, who showed quickness and ability out of the backfield late in the year.

Is the Benson-rookie-Johnson option too cautious and cheap?

Look, I'm a Sproles guy myself because it gives Carson another weapon as well as a dominating force on special teams, I don't think he'll have a bail-out number, and you can't beat speed.

And, granted, Johnson is no Sproles.

But what if the ticket on Sproles is high enough to take them out of a couple of more positions in free agency? Tough call in my mind. But whatever happens, I hope they give James Johnson a long look in training camp.[/quote]




[url="http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=7490"]http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=7490[/url]

[Marvin]

i'm not sure if i misread or what but is hobs saying we may "go to war with what we have" on the o-line, i don't trust levi's health, and collins played well (aganist some marginal teams) but to bank on him protecting the franchise seems beyond foolish. something must be done! right?


edit: after a quick reread he's saying don't break the bank on someone else's guy, his comments about the center though are scary, anyone of those guys would not be an upgrade, rather a lateral movement from eric g.

[sparky151]

It's the usual Bengals communications department jabber trying to tamp down expectations. Ghiaciuc was perhaps the worst starting center in the NFL last year. Hobson claims he'll get a decent contract from some other team but says that the Bengals shouldn't pay the market rate for Jason Brown, an above average center. It's the usual quantity as a substitute for quality stuff.

That business about paying your own guy vs someone else's guy is just dumb. A free agent is a free agent. It doesn't matter who drafted him. What matters is whether he'll be a good player for your team. When re-signing your own players, you know how the guy will fit in. When considering signing a player from another team (Brown, say) vs drafting a player (Mack or Unger, say) you can at least eliminate the bust factor and see how one guy does vs NFL competition.

[scharm]

I'd take me some Mike Goff back in a hurry if you though Whit or Williams could be successful in a position change.

Although people poo poo it, I have no problem with bengals going after 2nd tier guys. Grab a bunch of decent former 2nd, 3rd, 4th round picks.

The successful future of this team will tied to what they've already drafted and if they can string back to back solid draft classes, at least that's my theory.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote]But do you [b]drop a load [/b]on Terrell Suggs and then don't have enough to get the numerous other parts you need?[/quote]



I also disagree with his opinion of Saturday. Granted he is on the smaller side but he has more than held his own against the Steelers and the Ravens in his career. I don't think we should target someone like him anyway as we can get a young franchise C in the draft, but if he signed at a resonable deal he is a [b]significant[/b] upgrade over Bluto if for only 2-3 years.

[Le Tigre]

I sensing the annual Geoff-speak. I get the premise of not tossing huge amounts at just a few players...but if at least one player is a true difference-maker, why not?

With that said, I would be down with a few 30-somethings like a Goff getting here. It's a fact of life: yeah you build through the draft...but FA can get you solidified in a hurry so you are not trying to make your season on all the fucking kids.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='TrustNMarvin' post='744754' date='Feb 5 2009, 05:26 PM']i'm not sure if i misread or what but is hobs saying we may "go to war with what we have" on the o-line, i don't trust levi's health, [b]and collins played well (aganist some marginal teams)[/b] but to bank on him protecting the franchise seems beyond foolish. something must be done! right?


edit: after a quick reread he's saying don't break the bank on someone else's guy, his comments about the center though are scary, anyone of those guys would not be an upgrade, rather a lateral movement from eric g.[/quote]


Pissburgh and Baltimore are marginal teams? I'm not convinced that we should annoint Collins as the future LT just yet, but he's certainly proven that he COULD be the answer. We just haven't seen enough. Shutting down James Harrison and Terrel Suggs in your first 2 pro starts is a pretty good thing to have on your resume.


You're right though, I definately got the vibe from Hobson (who isn't privy to all the inside info but has some pulse on the organization) that they WEREN'T leaning OT in the first round.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='scharm' post='744766' date='Feb 5 2009, 06:38 PM']I'd take me some Mike Goff back in a hurry if you though Whit or Williams could be successful in a position change.

[b]Although people poo poo it, I have no problem with bengals going after 2nd tier guys. Grab a bunch of decent former 2nd, 3rd, 4th round picks. [/b]

The successful future of this team will tied to what they've already drafted and if they can string back to back solid draft classes, at least that's my theory.[/quote]


agreed. Although some are down on them, I think both Odom and Utecht (who both I expect to have healthy bounce-back years) are the types of guys for us to go after. Not the elite, break-the-bank guys, but the guys who are going to supplement our own draft picks and be role guys. Draft your superstars, surround them with role pieces from free agency.

[turningpoint]

eh I till think we should sign a top tier tackle, either lt or rt idc who.

They're protecting carson palmer here.....

[|SF2|]

I don't think there is any question that our FA signings will mostly be 2nd tier guys. There are only so many top notch FAs and we are not the only team in the league looking to sign them. To be honest I have always considered the FA side of obtaining great players very overrated. Your can pick up some decent players but I think you have about as much luck getting a player in the first 15 picks of the draft as you do signing a top rated FA and that guy playing up to typically over inflated expectations.

[Jamie_B]

same as it ever was

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='744824' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:19 PM']same as it ever was[/quote]

And you would expect anything more ????? Your smarter than that Jamie.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='claptonrocks' post='744827' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:22 PM']And you would expect anything more ????? Your smarter than that Jamie.[/quote]


no i dont.

at least not till katie takes over, then well see.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='744829' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:24 PM']no i dont.

at least not till katie takes over, then well see.[/quote]


How sad is it that we're counting on Katie as the savior of the franchise that we cherish?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='744831' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:27 PM']How sad is it that we're counting on Katie as the savior of the franchise that we cherish?[/quote]


My hope is she realizes she nor her husband have ever done any scouting or other work like and find a need for a GM to do so.

[scharm]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='744784' date='Feb 5 2009, 08:19 PM']agreed. Although some are down on them, I think both Odom and Utecht (who both I expect to have healthy bounce-back years) are the types of guys for us to go after. Not the elite, break-the-bank guys, but the guys who are going to supplement our own draft picks and be role guys. Draft your superstars, surround them with role pieces from free agency.[/quote]

Of course it all depends how they play, but the Bengals had a nice haul last year even if they backed into a couple guys

- Odom - 2nd rounder
- Utecht - 3rd rounder
- Johnson - 3rd Rounder
- Blackstock - 3rd rounder
- Benson - 1st rounder
- Crocker - 3rd rounder

I think the chance of any these guys (maybe Benson) being in the Pro Bowl are slim to none but I think they can be solid starters that form a core of solid teams.

Grab me 3/4 more this year hopefully a couple starters. Continued improvement of draft classes 06,07,08 and hopefully a solid 09. They'll be in good shape, IMO, for 2010.

Admittedly there's alot of ifs and buts included in that.

[TeeBengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='744824' date='Feb 6 2009, 12:19 AM']same as it ever was[/quote]


[quote name='Jamie_B' post='744829' date='Feb 6 2009, 12:24 AM']no i dont.

at least not till katie takes over, then well see.[/quote]



[quote name='Jamie_B' post='744835' date='Feb 6 2009, 12:39 AM']My hope is she realizes she nor her husband have ever done any scouting or other work like and find a need for a GM to do so.[/quote]


Jamie your right on. Same as it ever was. With Brown callin the shots, nothing changes....not even the Bengals piss poor record.

[TheBeaverHunter]

In all honesty why is it that everyone and their brother can see what the problem is, but the important Bengals cannot? I will be the first to admit that I am very intelligent and good looking, but this is not my job, yet I could very easily fix the problem with this team. Here we have people running this team and they can't seem to get anything right and their track record is stellar-ly bad. This is their only profession and they fail year after year.
Bengals plan to become a contender
Let TJ, Shayne walk
Trade Chad for 2nd and 3rd and (2nd or 3rd next year based on performance)....(first isn't likely anymore)
Sign in free agency LB, C, DT, WR
Draft LB, OL, DT, RB


As I have said prior give Carson time to do a drop and read the coverage and he can make any WR look good. We need a speed wr to get down field, a receiver to run tight short routes, and actual plays for the TE as a checkdown. We need more spread formations to create holes in the zone. With a solid line this will work instead of keeping everyone in to protect. Once the pass is established the running game should be cake. Throw in play actions to freeze LBs and DBs. Play actions also aid in actual running plays because once the players bite on play actions they won't be as aggressive to pursue the ball carrier for fear of play action. Draft a speed RB to run outs with and sweeps. Run dual back field with Benson (if signed) and new speed back. Be innovative with plays and play calling. D-line I want my tackles to weigh at least combined 650+ lbs. Their only job is to move forward and collapse the pocket and tie up blockers. Have speed off the edges. Have a bruiser MLB that can shoot the gaps.

There is a playoff spot.

But you don't have to take my word for it, read the book.

[Sigfox09]

[quote name='scharm' post='744869' date='Feb 6 2009, 08:08 AM']Of course it all depends how they play, but the Bengals had a nice haul last year even if they backed into a couple guys

- Odom - 2nd rounder
- Utecht - 3rd rounder
- Johnson - 3rd Rounder
- Blackstock - 3rd rounder
- Benson - 1st rounder
- Crocker - 3rd rounder

I think the chance of any these guys (maybe Benson) being in the Pro Bowl are slim to none but I think they can be solid starters that form a core of solid teams.

Grab me 3/4 more this year hopefully a couple starters. Continued improvement of draft classes 06,07,08 and hopefully a solid 09. They'll be in good shape, IMO, for 2010.

Admittedly there's alot of ifs and buts included in that.[/quote]

Other than Benson all of these guys are marginal talent. We dont have one solid playmaker on defense. We finished the season with all of 17 sacks so the idea that we just need to bring more marginal talent is crazy to me. We really only need one true difference maker of D to have a top ten defense.

[scharm]

[quote name='Sigfox09' post='744879' date='Feb 6 2009, 09:14 AM']Other than Benson all of these guys are marginal talent. We dont have one solid playmaker on defense. We finished the season with all of 17 sacks so the idea that we just need to bring more marginal talent is crazy to me. We really only need one true difference maker of D to have a top ten defense.[/quote]

I think those guys are marginal talent. I think you continue to fill your middle/bottom part of your roster with the same type of players. Hopefully in the mix you can get a couple good productive starters.

As for the defensive playmaker they've got J.Joe, Hall, Ndukwe, White, Rivers, Geathers, Sims, and Peko, so eventually some of those guys are going to have to step up and fill that role.

If that happens you can have a very solid team.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='scharm' post='744882' date='Feb 6 2009, 09:27 AM']I think those guys are marginal talent. I think you continue to fill your middle/bottom part of your roster with the same type of players. Hopefully in the mix you can get a couple good productive starters.

As for the defensive playmaker they've got J.Joe, Hall, Ndukwe, White, Rivers, Geathers, Sims, and Peko, so eventually some of those guys are going to have to step up and fill that role.

If that happens you can have a very solid team.[/quote]


not to mention, to be honest, that we still have no idea what we have in Utecht and Odom. Odom has been injured since the first day of training camp and never recovered fully.

[ChicagoBengal]

Did he just compare Jeff Saturday to Eric Ghiaciuc? Aside from size, there's no comparison of the two.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='ChicagoBengal' post='744886' date='Feb 6 2009, 09:40 AM']Did he just compare Jeff Saturday to Eric Ghiaciuc? Aside from size, there's no comparison of the two.[/quote]


that's all he was comparing, their size.

[Jason]

Here is what I want to know. If they do believe their LT of the future is a guy already here, be it Whit or Collins, assuming Curry is not available at 6, who do the Bengals take?

Draft a tackle anyway?

Curry is the only LB worth 6.

Malcom Jenkis would be worth it, but is not a need.

Crabtree? Wells? Moreno? Raji isn't worth 6 and DT isn't that great a need.

I wouldn't mind Orakpo or Brwon, but will the Bengals put that much $$$ at DE?

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jason' post='744890' date='Feb 6 2009, 08:53 AM']Here is what I want to know. If they do believe their LT of the future is a guy already here, be it Whit or Collins, assuming Curry is not available at 6, who do the Bengals take?

Draft a tackle anyway?

Curry is the only LB worth 6.

Malcom Jenkis would be worth it, but is not a need.

Crabtree? Wells? Moreno? Raji isn't worth 6 and DT isn't that great a need.

I wouldn't mind Orakpo or Brwon, but will the Bengals put that much $$$ at DE?[/quote]


Trade down.