Khatmandude Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Khat, I'll use your analogy, you put ponder, locker, or gabbert on this team they instantly become a non playoff team. I don't agree. Gabbert...sure, he sucks but Locker and Ponder could be serviceable QBs here. Ponder is essentially Dalton but more athletic and a better arm. Locker has potential that can be harnessed but don't know if it will in Tennessee. I can see how you think that and I think a case can be made for your argument but I think those teams with Dalton would be just as they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Here's how elite the team around Dalton was when he took tiny TCU unbeaten and topped Russell Wilson in the Rose Bowl: In the three years surrounding Dalton (2010, 2011, 2012), 3 guys from his offense were drafted into the NFL, all of them in the 5th round. The rest were a bunch of no-bodies. You could almost call TCU the Jacksonville of the NFL... For what it's worth the Wisconsin QB was Scott Tolzien (who actually is in the NFL). Wilson was still at NC State that year and transferred to Wisconsin after graduating for the following season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm telling you, there was a jaw dropping quote from Gruden at the end of last season about it. yes. I know I quoted it and marvelled at it, at the time. It is still mind-boggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Khat, I'll use your analogy, you put ponder, locker, or gabbert on this team they instantly become a non playoff team. Put Brady on this team and they are a Superbowl winning team..can play it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Put Brady on this team and they are a Superbowl winning team..can play it both ways. Hahah, really? Put a hall of fame QB on a good team and they are a super bowl winning caliber team? No shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Hahah, really? Put a hall of fame QB on a good team and they are a super bowl winning caliber team? No shit. Look at why I responded that way. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Look at why I responded that way. . You do realize he was comparing dalton to the other QBs drafted in the first round before Dalton right? Not just picking 3 random shitty Qbs, or in your case picking a random hall of fame QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnbengal Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Put Brady on this team and they are a Superbowl winning team..can play it both ways. You are correct but you miss the point some posters around here are claiming you could put any quarterback on this team and get the exact same results and that is crazy. Just look at the nineties or the mistake by the lake to see how hard it is to find a decent QB let alone a QB. of Dalton's ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigris Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Someone alluded to it earlier but... Look at Andy Dalton's record against 3-4 teams. Then go and look at the fact the our division rivals are ALL 3-4 teams, and constitute a vast majority of our prime-time opponents. Playoff games? Yep, all 3-4 teams. Anyone seeing a trend here? Now somebody go and find the quote of Jay Gruden saying he hadn't really figured out playing against 3-4 defenses yet at the end of last season. Yes, our offensive fucking coordinator went on the record and said he was having trouble against the 3-4. This, from the same guy that brought you the "throw it up to AJ Green in triple coverage gameplan", or the "let's make Jermaine "Anti-clutch" Gresham the center of our playoff offense" gameplan, or the "let's throw it 50 times while BJGE is running wild gameplan." Knock on Andy Dalton all you want. But let the kid play under an OC that at least has a clue before you lay all the blame at his feet. Cuz the thing is, for every one of Andy Dalton's plays, Jay Wicky Wacky Gruden was in his ear, calling the shots. Confirmed kill. Andy isn't perfect but he's a much better QB than Jay Gruden is OC. They were a horrible match together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 You are correct but you miss the point some posters around here are claiming you could put any quarterback on this team and get the exact same results and that is crazy. Just look at the nineties or the mistake by the lake to see how hard it is to find a decent QB let alone a QB. of Dalton's ability. These are strawman. Good franchises always have solid QBs. The teams that drafted Ponder, Locker and Gabbert were horrible. In the case of Ponder and Locker they were over drafted. In the case of Gabbert he was on a horrific team and who knows how good he would have been in Cincy or will be in San Francisco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_dish Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Confirmed kill. Andy isn't perfect but he's a much better QB than Jay Gruden is OC. They were a horrible match together. Probably true. Not that Gruden would have been fired, but Hue last year as OC would have taken this offense to a better place, and I think he'll help Dalton this year. Just don't think he deserves crazy pay at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Kinda like how you dismissed Go's 'facts' he posted about games that matter. Not so elite or great or even good stats would you say? I'd say closer to bottom 10 than top 10 kinda stats ....no? After 2010, nobody thought the Bengals would be able to replace Carson so quickly, yet a 2nd Rd QB was brought in and he performed fairly well.....so a QB in the draft is a possibility. Can the drafted QB fail? Sure, but he can also succeed and with the players around him on this team, I would lean towards him succeeding as the players around him will 'prop him up' just as the supporting cast has done with Dalton. His stats say one thing, but as we know, stats are but a variable in the equation. Mike Brown sees this it seems and is reluctant in paying Dalton big time money.....and rightfully so. Dalton and his agent will try to bring the stats argument to the forefront....as they should in looking out for themselves, but I hope the Bengals aren't foolish enough to give this guy big time money as he's a product of the team around him vs him making those around him better. I would argue finding another avg QB would produce the same results that Dalton has. At a fraction of the cost, so to help sign and keep intact the same players around him that helped to achieve that level of success. Look at it this way, Dalton on the Jags isn't going to make them a playoff team. He needs an elite cast around him, not only that but he needs them to be functioning at a high level in order for himself to succeed....otherwise he shits the bed, wet shit, diarrheas the bed leaving all sort of skid marks that some see as chocolate. I see it as shit. Hopefully Mike Brown does as well. I'm trying to think of a playoff team who let there marginal qb go and plummeted to the bottom. I'm not struggling with thinking of teams who re signed there marginal qb too a huge deal and fell way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Probably true. Not that Gruden would have been fired, but Hue last year as OC would have taken this offense to a better place, and I think he'll help Dalton this year. Just don't think he deserves crazy pay at this point. Once again, please let me know who on here is saying he deserves "crazy pay". Until someone can point to that person, folks are arguing against no one. It's one of the problems with these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Amazes me the lengths some go to to not put any onus on Andy Dalton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Amazes me the lengths some go to to not put any onus on Andy Dalton. Please show me who is doing that Jamie, because I honestly don't see ANYONE doing what you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Amazes me the lengths some go to to not put any onus on Andy Dalton. Amazes me the lengths people will go to to put it all on Dalton. No one is saying Dalton is blameless. Those of us who defend him are just pointing out he's not the only one. Someone remind me how many playoff games we won before Dalton? Or how many we made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Please show me who is doing that Jamie, because I honestly don't see ANYONE doing what you say. The 3/4 argument , go back and read it, putting it all on Jay (who deserves alot) vis a vis Dalton's bad play in division/playoff/prime time games. It's an interesting argument, but Andy has beaten 3/4 teams. Amazes me the lengths people will go to to put it all on Dalton. No one is saying Dalton is blameless. Those of us who defend him are just pointing out he's not the only one. Someone remind me how many playoff games we won before Dalton? Or how many we made? Not at all, I don't put it all on Dalton, I put the majority of it on him. So now just making the playoffs is the bar? I thought we raised that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 These are strawman. Good franchises always have solid QBs. The teams that drafted Ponder, Locker and Gabbert were horrible. In the case of Ponder and Locker they were over drafted. In the case of Gabbert he was on a horrific team and who knows how good he would have been in Cincy or will be in San Francisco. All of those teams were supposed to be better than us in 2011. They were all drafting after us, and we had lost one of our better defenders and his royal quitness. The team was supposed to be worse than Cleveland, and Andy was rated the 33rd best QB in the league. Out of 32 teams. How quickly we let perception change history to fit our diatribe, don't we Mr Weston? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 The 3/4 argument , go back and read it, putting it all on Jay (who deserves alot) vis a vis Dalton's bad play in division/playoff/prime time games. It's an interesting argument, but Andy has beaten 3/4 teams. Not at all, I don't put it all on Dalton, I put the majority of it on him. So now just making the playoffs is the bar? I thought we raised that? We only raised that bar because the guy you blame for playoff losses, has played well in the regular season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 The 3/4 argument , go back and read it, putting it all on Jay (who deserves alot) vis a vis Dalton's bad play in division/playoff/prime time games. It's an interesting argument, but Andy has beaten 3/4 teams. The only 3-4 team Dalton has beaten while also putting up great numbers against was the Jets last season. But anyone watching that game saw Bengals receivers wide open all day long. The Jets secondary play in that game was the worst I saw last season.. It was atrocious. And pointing out Dalton's horrid stats against 3-4 teams doesn't change the fact that it's a huge problem. No QB should have numbers like that against any specific kind of defense regardless of the offensive coordinator. It has gone on long enough to make it a real stumbling block without an easy solution. Especially since half the teams in the NFL play a 3-4, including ALL the teams in their division this upcoming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 The 3/4 argument , go back and read it, putting it all on Jay (who deserves alot) vis a vis Dalton's bad play in division/playoff/prime time games. It's an interesting argument, but Andy has beaten 3/4 teams. Not at all, I don't put it all on Dalton, I put the majority of it on him. So now just making the playoffs is the bar? I thought we raised that? as the person who wrote it, um, no, it didn't. . not that Gruden and the offense are the only factor, but: 13-18 against 3-4 defenses, including all 3 playoff games. 17-3 against 4-3 defenses and yes, those same stats obviously apply for Dalton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 The only 3-4 team Dalton has beaten while also putting up great numbers against was the Jets last season. But anyone watching that game saw Bengals receivers wide open all day long. The Jets secondary play in that game was the worst I saw last season.. It was atrocious. And pointing out Dalton's horrid stats against 3-4 teams doesn't change the fact that it's a huge problem. No QB should have numbers like that against any specific kind of defense regardless of the offensive coordinator. It has gone on long enough to make it a real stumbling block without an easy solution. Especially since half the teams in the NFL play a 3-4, including ALL the teams in their division this upcoming season. IMO its more coverage than scheme. Dalton and Gruden lit up teams who played man coverage (which the jets did despite being a 3-4). It's the exotic blitzes and coverages that were more challenging, regardless of whether its a 4-3 or 3-4 defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 The 3/4 argument , go back and read it, putting it all on Jay (who deserves alot) vis a vis Dalton's bad play in division/playoff/prime time games. It's an interesting argument, but Andy has beaten 3/4 teams. Not at all, I don't put it all on Dalton, I put the majority of it on him. So now just making the playoffs is the bar? I thought we raised that? No. But people around here act like we were winning playoff games left and right before Dalton, and then once he got here we couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 We only raised that bar because the guy you blame for playoff losses, has played well in the regular season. Something I've never denied. But i have greater expectations than just getting there. I should hope we all do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 You do realize he was comparing dalton to the other QBs drafted in the first round before Dalton right? Not just picking 3 random shitty Qbs, or in your case picking a random hall of fame QB. I didn't! My bad ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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