After Week 1--Impression of Replacement Refs

[MichaelWeston]

When someone tells you over and over again that something is one way, like ESPN is doing, its very hard to see something a different way. (Again I think it was a pick but not as clear cut) Its a psychological trick that we do to ourselves.

A similar idea is here. [url="http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/words.html"]http://faculty.washi...dler/words.html[/url]

One of the reasons why I hate ESPN. They win if there is controversy.

[esjbh2]

I don't know what all the disagreement here is all about. The multiple replays clearly show Jennings catching the ball and Tate clutching the defenders arms instead of the ball. As they are falling to the ground, Tate releases his grip on Jennings arms and then tries to grab the football instead. Catch Jennings, maybe or maybe not a takeaway by Tate which is clear violation of the simultaneous catch rule anyway.

That plus the fact it was the most blatant Offensive Pass Interference I've ever seen. Don't give me this crap that OPI is never called in that situation either, that's just BS.

I think something is done this week. This was the final straw IMHO.

[Mikey6866]

Sam Shield PI was botched...the last play of the game was a pick(as well as OPI)....and the one i cant believe nobody is talking about...the int that got erased because of a terrible roughing the passer call. GB virtually seals the game if it wasnt for that horrible roughing the passer call. ESPN is right to be talking about it....its a fuckin embarassment...these scabs are terrible. My favorite game is turning into a joke.

[Gary]

[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1348551104' post='1162857']
Do you think that video is clear cut? It almost makes me question it more.

Also the next step of that video is them laying on each other and it becomes even more ambiguous.
[/quote]

Yes.. The other guy is "touching" the ball and Jennings has it wrapped up and into his chest. Once Jennings feet touch the ground it's game over.

It's not like a play where someone rips the ball out of the receivers hand and gets the catch. This is an end zone play so the moment his feet touch the ground the game is over (unless he drops it before he gained possession).

[u][b]Bottom line, Tate was "reaching for the ball" and had two hands on it... Jennings had POSSESSION of the ball and had it against his chest when his feet touch the ground. This isn't even a case of simultaneous reception. Jennings had it all the way through the possession until his back was an the ground. [/b][/u]

[membengal]

Twitter was made for stuff like last night. Best one I saw out of a lot of good ones:

[quote]"If you are holding your baby, and I walk up and hug you, according to the replacement refs, I get your baby."[/quote]

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1348551211' post='1162858']
When someone tells you over and over again that something is one way, like ESPN is doing, its very hard to see something a different way. (Again I think it was a pick but not as clear cut) Its a psychological trick that we do to ourselves.

A similar idea is here. [url="http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/words.html"]http://faculty.washi...dler/words.html[/url]

One of the reasons why I hate ESPN. They win if there is controversy.
[/quote]

Why do you always try to defend the most indefensible shit? You just keep going on and on, and I think even you know that it's bullshit, but you just keep going. Are you trying to be a troll, or are you just an obstinate ass?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1348545514' post='1162770']
Tie goes to the offense
[/quote]


That's correct. But there's also a rule that it's not a tie if one player establishes the possession first. Ref in the booth made that clear last night. Can't have simultaneous possession if one player establishes it first.


Possibly the worst call in the history of football.

[Vol_Bengal]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtYeeFpPPz0[/media]

Weston / BAB...

watch that video and tell me, with a straight face,

1) there isn't pass intereference on Tate for just flat pushing #37 right in the back out of the way...
& 2) Jennings doesn't clearly have possession of the ball before Tate EVER does... heck, as they're falling Tate repositions his right arm from above Jennings arm to below Jennings right arm. How does he have possession with one arm not touching anything?

If you two can manage to do that then I think I've found my front men if I ever try to run a ponzi scheme. I had no dog in this fight... I could have cared less who won this game. Meant nothing to me either way.

That last night was a joke. I'll just about guarantee the regular officials are back to work this week. It'd be one thing if this had happened to the Bengals, Bills, Jaguars, etc. but one of the NFL's crown jewel franchise's (the house Lombardi built) gets just straight up butt-fucked on MNF on a horrendous on the field call, that is then upheld by the same incompetent official in replay, will be the tipping point.

[Bengals1181]

Biggest screwup was the head official not conferring with the other refs before reviewing it. Once he went into the review booth, possession could no longer be changed.

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='Mikey6866' timestamp='1348552398' post='1162860']
Sam Shield PI was botched...the last play of the game was a pick(as well as OPI)....and the one i cant believe nobody is talking about...the int that got erased because of a terrible roughing the passer call. GB virtually seals the game if it wasnt for that horrible roughing the passer call. ESPN is right to be talking about it....its a fuckin embarassment...these scabs are terrible. My favorite game is turning into a joke.
[/quote]

Cant go low late...Isnt that the Carson Palmer rule? I agree it looked bad but thought it was one of those I have to call it rules.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='dabengals12' timestamp='1348545716' post='1162775']
Damn... Everyone was saying refs weren't affecting games? Offensive pass interference and int ignored on one play. Get those fucks out of the game. Wow.
[/quote]

[quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1348545740' post='1162776']
That might be the blown call needed to get the real refs back.... Packers just got screwed
[/quote]

[quote name='CTBengalsFan' timestamp='1348545750' post='1162777']
That was an absolute disgrace.
[/quote]

[quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1348546002' post='1162784']
no offense, but you're blind if you think that was a tie. Jennings caught it and then Tate put his hands on it. One of the guys standing over the ball did call it a pick
[/quote]

[quote name='BScott28' timestamp='1348546067' post='1162788']
This is the worst thing I ever have seen in my life.

Not only do you review it under the hood and still give him the TD, but how is that not an inference call?!

They blew this game so bad
[/quote]



[quote name='MrDingleDangle' timestamp='1348549026' post='1162839']
[img]http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1427801/hailmar2_medium.gif[/img]


[img]http://i.imgur.com/E9jCI.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


[quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1348549183' post='1162843']
I don't think Tate even remotely had possession of it. He was just touching it. The defensive back has it clutched in both arms against his chest. Tate's arms are full extended just touching it trying to pull it away from him. Just awful.
[/quote]

[quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1348550496' post='1162853']
[img]http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1427857/refss.gif[/img]
[/quote]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1348573328' post='1162868']
That's correct. But there's also a rule that it's not a tie if one player establishes the possession first. Ref in the booth made that clear last night. Can't have simultaneous possession if one player establishes it first.


Possibly the worst call in the history of football.
[/quote]




I still can not believe that it was called a TD, even though one Ref actually got it right.
Then reviewed and called a TD. There are a lot of tore up Packer fans here. A few
said last night that they weren't watching another game until the old Refs come back.


[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1348551104' post='1162857']
Do you think that video is clear cut? It almost makes me question it more.
[/quote]


You're stupid.

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='Gary' timestamp='1348552462' post='1162861']
Yes.. The other guy is "touching" the ball and Jennings has it wrapped up and into his chest. Once Jennings feet touch the ground it's game over.

It's not like a play where someone rips the ball out of the receivers hand and gets the catch. This is an end zone play so the moment his feet touch the ground the game is over (unless he drops it before he gained possession).

[u][b]Bottom line, Tate was "reaching for the ball" and had two hands on it... Jennings had POSSESSION of the ball and had it against his chest when his feet touch the ground. This isn't even a case of simultaneous reception. Jennings had it all the way through the possession until his back was an the ground. [/b][/u]

Agreed, but the ref did not have the ability to see all the replays we did. At the time it looked pretty close to simultaneous possession.
[/quote]

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1348573328' post='1162868']
That's correct. But there's also a rule that it's not a tie if one player establishes the possession first. Ref in the booth made that clear last night. Can't have simultaneous possession if one player establishes it first.


Possibly the worst call in the history of football.
[/quote]

There isnt clear possession in the video until Jennings roles over.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1348574127' post='1162875']


There isnt clear possession in the video until Jennings roles over.
[/quote]

He clearly caught it in the air. He may not have had technical possession as his feet weren't down yet, but by rule Tate can't grab the ball second and be awarded possession.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1348574365' post='1162876']
He clearly caught it in the air. He may not have had technical possession as his feet weren't down yet, but by rule Tate can't grab the ball second and be awarded possession.
[/quote]


Golden Tate is the first Player in NFL History to commit OPI, Not Catch a Ball and be awarded a TD.
Russel Wilson is the first Player in NFL History to throw a Game Winning INT. Period. End of story.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXDs1YQO04k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtYeeFpPPz0

[oldschooler]

I've seen it being called "The Innacurate Reception"

[Bengals1181]

Other issues include the three bad calls leading up to that play and that Pete Carroll should have been flagged about five different times for even being on the field at the end. Or being part of the mess at the end when they were trying to figure out who had the ball.


After the game golden Tate wouldn't even deny that he pushed off.

[oldschooler]

[size=6][b][url="http://www.espn1530.com/pages/mo.html?article=10442440"]The NFL And Its Broken Contract With Its Public[/url][/b][/size]

The NFL is facing the biggest credibility and integrity crisis of any major American sports league in the last quarter century.


http://youtu.be/n5L7O3PWICs


In 1987, the NFL used replacement players for three weeks. The results were predictable: Unwatchable football games played by men who were mostly enjoying a glorified fantasy camp. As bad as the games were and as insulting to the average fan's intelligence their presentation was, what was worse is that owners charged fans full price for the games, and their results counted.

The Washington Redskins won the Super Bowl that season, their real players benefiting from the 3-0 record their replacements posted during the strike. One of those replacements the 'Skins used was a quarterback they found on a work furlough from prison.

Legit NFL like Bill Parcells, Tom Landry and Bill Walsh had to coach these guys, working under the league-mandated guise that these games that starred truck drivers, salesmen, and bartenders were just as legit as the games that starred Taylor, Dorsett, and Montana.

I remember vividly being ten years old and watching with curiosity as NBC signed on to carry a game between two pretend teams and the late Charlie Jones beginning the broadcast....
"NBC Sports Presents.....(long pause where you could almost visualize him shaking his head and taking another swig from a flask)....the National Football League....."

It was a farce, something that no league could dare pass off these days, not with today's more sophisticated fans, and not with the money involved in being either a fan, a sponsor, or a media rights-holder.

But what we're witnessing here is close. No major sports league in the last quarter century has credibility and integrity problems of this magnitude.

This is bigger than the Donaghy scandal the NBA faced five years ago. That was a rouge ref on the take and he was forgotten after about an hour. This is a league both sanctioning and ignoring incompetence.

It's not just last night's debacle in Seattle, it's the work by the replacement refs that went from shaky in week one, to poor in week two, to embarrassing in week three. What the NFL is trying to pass off as legit officiating as the 'highest level is torpedoing a league that's foundation has always been built on integrity, legitimacy, and credibility.

That call in Seattle could've been missed by the real refs, and we could've had the same confusion we saw at Qwest Field late last night, and we could've seen the same outrage team struggle to comprehend the result afterward, but there's always been an implied contract between the major sports leagues and it's fans....

"We invest emotionally and financially in your game, you give us the best in the world at what they do. The contests will be mediated by objective professionals who've had years of training and who are more qualified than anyone on the planet to make snap judgments and key decisions that affect outcomes. Mistakes will be made, because the human element is inherent in sports, but we can live with them as long as they are being made by people who's training and qualifications are unparalleled."

The NFL has broken that contract with us.

I had no skin in the game last night, no emotional connection to either team, no wager on either the Packers or the Seahawks (1. Imagine having Green Bay at -3.5 2. At this point, if you're betting on games officiated by replacement refs, go get help), I couldn't care less about who won or lost. And aside from Sunday's Bengals game where confused officials also had a starring role, I had no investment, emotional or otherwise, in any of the other games tainted by the replacement referees.

But that's not the point. I still watched. I still invested three and a half hours of my time, as I do nearly every Monday night, to the NFL's product last night. I invested a solid seven hours on Sunday. I watch NFL games for hours on end every week. I throw more than a thousand dollars in ticket money at one of the league's franchises every season, I buy NFL Sunday Ticket and Red Zone Channel. I give the league enormous chunks of money, and just as important, my time, ever season.

All I ask for in return are legitimate results.

And I didn't get that last night. I'm not getting it this year. These games are tainted. These results are questionable, not every single one of course, but given the NFL's relatively short season, the effect that each game can have on so many teams, and the small margin for error in nearly every game every week (46% of the league's games so far have been decided by seven points or less), there isn't a team unaffected by this, which means there isn't a fan unaffected by this.

And most insulting, the people running the league are either oblivious to this, which is possible or simply don't care, which is likely.

[b][url="http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/story/2012/09/12/goodell-lauds-replacement-refs/57761674/1"]The platitudes coming out of the league office for these refs[/url] [/b]are both comical and nauseating. The commish and more important, the owners he works for, continue to chuck the middle finger to anyone who gives even half a crap about the league or any one of its franchises. (It's too bad the Packers aren't represented by one single owner. I'd love to hear his/her take on last night) And all while instead of addressing the real problems, Roger Goodell's office divides its time between [b][url="http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-warns-coaches-to-stop-mistreating-the-replacement-refs-2012-9"]admonishing coaches and players who are too mean to the replacements[/url][/b] and [b][url="http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/nfl-fines-49ers-cornerback-tarell-brown-wearing-red-213239748--nfl.html"]making sure players are wearing the right color sleeves[/url][/b].

This isn't about a few missed calls. Those are inevitable, no matter what officials are working. This isn't about a game changing because of a few missed calls. That's inevitable too. This is about a league that normally goes out of its way to hold itself and its players to the highest of standards accepting and enabling a substandard product.

Human error is forgivable. Sanctioning incompetence, especially when it has the potential to stain something that millions of us devote so much time, energy, and money to, is utterly unforgivable.

Going into the season, the NFL had no contract with its officials. Three weeks into it, it's already broken the one they had with us.


Read more: [url="http://www.espn1530.com/pages/mo.html#ixzz27TxHJk6y"]http://www.espn1530.com/pages/mo.html#ixzz27TxHJk6y[/url]

[fluhartz]

I just don't see how anyone can think that was a touchdown. Jennings clearly intercepted the ball and Tate was just doing everything he could to try to take it from him. One of the worst calls I have ever seen to give a game away...even worse than the Justin Smith play against TB..

If that shit would have happened to the Bengals..my head would have exploded....

[Bengals1181]

Wow, first ever game winning "touchdown" on the final play of a Monday night football game in its 648 game history.

[Phatcat]

Wow, Mo Eggers wrote that. Very well written.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1348575956' post='1162884']
Wow, first ever game winning "touchdown" on the final play of a Monday night football game in its 648 game history.
[/quote]
Its even more disappointing it occurred on such a sham...

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1348575252' post='1162881']
Other issues include the three bad calls leading up to that play and that Pete Carroll should have been flagged about five different times for even being on the field at the end. Or being part of the mess at the end when they were trying to figure out who had the ball.


After the game golden Tate wouldn't even deny that he pushed off.
[/quote]

He clearly pushed off. No question

[Hooky]

[quote name='fluhartz' timestamp='1348575848' post='1162883']
I just don't see how anyone can think that was a touchdown. Jennings clearly intercepted the ball and Tate was just doing everything he could to try to take it from him. One of the worst calls I have ever seen to give a game away...even worse than the Justin Smith play against TB..

If that shit would have happened to the Bengals..my head would have exploded....
[/quote]

The refs ruled that they both had possession, but Tate didn't have possession as much as he had one arm trapped in there. Jennings had the ball to his chest, rolled over, then Tate spooned with him putting his other hand on the ball.

I also obviously feel you on the scenario of it happening to the Bengals. I was hot enough after the call last night, if it was the Bengals I don't know what I would've done.

The pass interference call on the pass to Sidney Rice was pivotal as well and insanely bad. That showed me that the ref has no idea what the pass interference rules are. It was like he was calling any contact by the defender, which in this case was initiated by Rice.

I think that an insane gesture is needed. A coach should decline a penalty against the other team if it is as ridiculous as the one I just mentioned. I know it would never happen, but something like that would be a huge story and really make the refs look bad. Or have a coach challenge a really horrendous call that went their way. I know this is a stupid idea that would never happen, but part of what really infuriated me was Pete Carroll not even acknowledging how bad the call was.

I'm not naive, but something needs to be done to make a statement. The real refs make mistakes too, but the fake refs have already blown more games in 3 weeks than the real refs have in 2 decades.

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1348574365' post='1162876']
He clearly caught it in the air. He may not have had technical possession as his feet weren't down yet, but by rule Tate can't grab the ball second and be awarded possession.
[/quote]

I dont think posession is that clear. As I have said I think it is an interception but spur of the moment I can see them calling it mutual posession or whatever the phrase is. The announcer even calls it that during the game. I just don't think its as blatantly obvious and horrible of a call as everyone is saying. After watching replays from all angles I do think it was a pick. Jennigns has to have it through falling to the ground for it to be a td (Isnt that the Calvin Johnson rule from last year?).