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Prob needs it's own thread, right?

 

Snarkster wrote in the OTA thread:

 

How about a Bates debate.  Safety is one of those positions (like IOL) that the Bengals just don't value and aren't gonna pay top dollar for.  I would be surprised if they come up off of their latest offer to Bates (whatever that may be).

 

I believe when they didn't offer him what he felt he deserved last summer he got all pissy and let it sour his play.  Now he's been tagged he's he gonna holdout and causing all kinds of drama.  Even if he does finally accept the tag, how will it affect his play?  The locker room?  Unless there's a surprise multi-year deal, I think the team should start exploring option.

 

I'm not that familiar with Tag rules though.  Even though he's not technically under  contract, can they deal him (sign and trade maybe?)? If they end up letting him walk, does he still qualify for a comp pick?  Does his $13M+ cap figure go back in the kitty to be spent elsewhere?

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I'm not a mod, so can't move posts, but I will paste some of the Bates posts from the Hill thread here:

 

Jamie:

 

The Bengals wont budge, they let Carson Palmer retire until the Raiders offered something silly. Bates wont command something silly from another team. He may net them more than a 1st rounder, but he won't push the Bengals to the table on a threat like this. 

 

Tigre:

 

All of the media bullshit is speculation. Soon enough, because he hasn’t been a good lad and happily showed up for voluntary workouts with no contract, he’ll become the Devil incarnate to everyone.  Business, it’s business. And it’s a dance. Each side knows it, and it will resolve. 

 

Spicoli:

 

The amount of money these guys make on the tag, I can’t really get on board with them acting like babies and trying to force negotiations.  Suck it up buttercup. C ya if not. 

 

Earl:

 

Eh...it's his career.  Players don't have many avenues to pressure owners to deal.  I harbor no ill will toward Bates for playing hardball, but I also realize the Brown family has paid their own players generously in the past.  This has to be about guaranteed money.  Bates' agent got the Deshaun Watson deal, so I suppose we're gonna see a dance.

 

Me:

 

I don’t begrudge bates for trying. I do think it’s misplaced. I am glad bengals had a good plan in place. I would guess he will show up before third preseason game. Maybe see him on field by regular season week 3. don’t care. This team is bigger than all the players except one. And bates ain’t that one. 

 

Sparky:

 

Bates isn't going to sit out the season. If no deal is reached on a long term contract by the July 15 deadline, he'll skip camp and sign the tender before the regular season starts. The 12.9 mil on the franchise tag is more than he's made in his 4 year career.  Since the team has already used their first round pick on his replacement, I doubt the team gives Bates a long term deal. So I'd guess we'll see him in September. Let's hope he shows up in shape. 

 

esjbh:

 

I have to admit it's a little bit concerning to me.  I know Bates has LOTS of support/friendships with his teammates.  I'd hate to see this become a festering wound in the team chemistry and/or affect how the young players are accepted.  I keep telling myself its just a business and all is fair, but I think team chemistry was big part of last year's success.

 

BBR:

 

Didn't he admit to not playing as well for part / most of the regular season last year because he was unhappy with the contract talks?  Then he just pushed it aside mentally for the post-season games and that allowed him to play at a higher level. What I'm getting at is, he was grumpy last year about all of it, so I'm not sure how much if at all it's actually going to affect team chemistry this year compared to last year.  Right now, it's the only real drama to ask about with the team so that's what people are focusing on.  Just seems to me like it was all drowned out last year because of the non-stop second guessing about Chase vs. Sewell which was the easy thing to report on.

 

sparky:

 

I don't think the Bengals will sign him to a long term deal now after drafting Hill. So no deal by July 15. That will likely lead Bates to skip camp and pre-season and sign the tender just before the season starts. He won't be in football shape then so Hill will get a lot of snaps and if he plays well could win the starting FS job. Or if Hill struggles, Bates will get more snaps than he otherwise would. 

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The true value for Bates is likely about 13 million a year (coincidentally his tag #) - but I would guess his agent wants something like 18 a year and he's not worth that.

 

I would offer him a 4 year 52 million $ deal with 26 guaranteed and tell him it's take it or leave it. The Bengals have most of the leverage in this situation as his worst regular season was last year (followed by a strong playoffs).

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He will show up and play, not playing or taking weeks off will hurt his next contract. 

 

I hope he's here, and we're talking about this now like we were when Mixon was upset (but showed up) that he hadn't gotten done yet. 

 

If not I wish him well and we move on. 

 

This is all 100% agent driven. (haha where you at @oldschooler?) :ninja:

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Bates ability to play single high and an elite level is massively underrated and huge for this D.  We all HOPE Dax could fill that role, but we don't know yet.  We've seen bad safety player here before (hello Kevin Kaesvaharn).  One hole in Bates' game is his tackling.   Other than that, he's a great safety and showed his value in the playoffs.  Yes, he had a bad regular season by his standard last year, but admitted the contract stuff was in his head.  I don't know if signing him put has an effect on Higgins and/or Boyd, but I think he's vital to this D.  If anything, Mixon is going to be the one that may get the ax (I haven't looked at the numbers yet) next year to make the room.

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Bengals are currently about 42 mil under the projected cap for 2023, plus whatever they carry over from this year's current 16 mil under the cap. Starters who will be free agents in 2023 are Bates, Bell, Apple, Hurst, and Pratt. But they will want to head off the 2024 free agent class by getting some extensions done with Jonah Williams, Tee Higgins, Logan Wilson, Chido Awuzie, and maybe Reader, Boyd or Burrow. 

 

So they aren't likely to sign Bates to a long term deal. I could even see a trade happening before the season if Hill looks good. Bates would want to be traded before July 15 so he could do a long term deal with his new team. 

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Quote

40 Yard Dash:    4.50 seconds
 20 Yard Split:    2.63 seconds
10 Yard Split:    1.58 seconds
 Vertical Leap:    35.5 inches
20 Yd Shuttle:    4.26 seconds
Three Cone:    6.78 seconds

 

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9 minutes ago, High School Harry said:

Wow... Buh bye, Jesse.


Remember that those numbers don’t make any indication regarding what’s between the ears.  But, it does look like the team is well set to handle losing Bates.

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54 minutes ago, High School Harry said:

Wow... Buh bye, Jesse.

 

If we were playing Combine Ball maybe..  I'd prefer to see Dax play an NFL snap or two before we decide those combine numbers matter.

 

Or do we need to post John Ross's combine numbers too?  Don't make me do it.

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Nobody has any idea whether Dax or Tycen will be better than Bates, but it's mathematically evident that they are faster and more athletic. Plus much cheaper for the next 4 years then what Bates wants. 

 

If the NFL had no salary cap resigning Bates would be easy. But the pie only has so many slices and Burrow, Higgins, Wilson, Pratt, Jonah, and eventually Chase are going to need to eat as well.

 

Good teams lose players in free agency, it's the price of success and beats being garbage with players that nobody wants. Hopefully if Bates isn't in the long term plan they can trade him for a 2nd and 3rd rounder (worth dealing him for that in my view).

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8 hours ago, Cricket said:

Question: What was Bates’ 40 time when drafted?

what doe that have to do with anything?  He has been beast and his 40 time from a few years ago is meaningless. 

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12 minutes ago, fluhartz said:

what doe that have to do with anything?  He has been beast and his 40 time from a few years ago is meaningless. 

 

I was curious and just wanted to know (and was too lazy to look it up for myself).  
 

Hope that’s okay with you…

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1 minute ago, Cricket said:

 

I was curious and just wanted to know (and was too lazy to look it up for myself).  
 

Hope that’s okay with you…

ha ha.. ok and I am too lazy to look it up too 

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7 hours ago, BlackJesus said:

Hopefully if Bates isn't in the long term plan they can trade him for a 2nd and 3rd rounder (worth dealing him for that in my view).

 

 

Wouldn't he have to sign a long term deal for that to happen?  Can you trade a franchise tagged player?

 

Seems like we'd have better luck with a comp pick but IDK that shit is confusing.

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25 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

Wouldn't he have to sign a long term deal for that to happen?  Can you trade a franchise tagged player?

 

Seems like we'd have better luck with a comp pick but IDK that shit is confusing.

 

you can trade anyone you have under contract, any contract, he would have to have signed the tag.

 

the folks in the know seem to think he ends up not signing the long term deal, caves and signs the tag deal, plays one year then leaves, which seems about perfect aside from trading him, but ill take the assurance of the one year while rookies groom just fine.

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10 hours ago, GoBengals said:

 

you can trade anyone you have under contract, any contract, he would have to have signed the tag.

 

the folks in the know seem to think he ends up not signing the long term deal, caves and signs the tag deal, plays one year then leaves, which seems about perfect aside from trading him, but ill take the assurance of the one year while rookies groom just fine.

 

 

So best case is probably a high comp pick?

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