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19 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

A baller or a bawler?

Im starting to wonder about this guy.

 

 

Everything is relative of course, but given how he played in that game, (that was my point -- rewatch the game if you must) are you really surprised he's been holding out?  I'm not surprised. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, CincyInDC said:

 

Everything is relative of course, but given how he played in that game, (that was my point -- rewatch the game if you must) are you really surprised he's been holding out?  I'm not surprised. 

 

 

I watched the game.

I watched his play all season..

 

13 mil is alot of money for 1 yr.

If he plays Im good.

If he doesnt i have no qualms with Hill taking his spot.

Reload..that's the NFL way..

 

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22 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

I watched the game.

I watched his play all season..

 

13 mil is alot of money for 1 yr.

If he plays Im good.

If he doesnt i have no qualms with Hill taking his spot.

Reload..that's the NFL way..

 

 

 

I'd rather not start any rookies if we don't have to. 

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4 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

So best case is probably a high comp pick?

That's what I'm thinking.

So kind of like drafting Dax to replace Jesse and getting an extra 3rd round (comp) pick.

If we traded him for a 3rd rounder it would be about the same thing but keeping him here

a year to groom Dax and the other guy and getting the same thing seems like good thinkin', Dobie.

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48 minutes ago, High School Harry said:

That's what I'm thinking.

So kind of like drafting Dax to replace Jesse and getting an extra 3rd round (comp) pick.

If we traded him for a 3rd rounder it would be about the same thing but keeping him here

a year to groom Dax and the other guy and getting the same thing seems like good thinkin', Dobie.


Just pointing out that, assuming Jesse plays this year under the tag and then signs elsewhere before the 2023 season, the potential comp pick would be in the 2024 draft.

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there seems to be this lingering "no one on the bengals is as good as people think" stench from this fanbase. between comments here, and social media, and facebook comments on bengals facebook posts, its wild.

 

as far as bates trade value, the seahawks gave up 2 first round picks and a player for adams and turned around and paid him 70 million over 4 years on top of it.

 

a first and a second would be a fairly easy get for a player like Bates, IMO

 

$13 million isnt that much for a high caliber player. Waynes as a free agent was worth $14/yr (before he wasnt, after-all) i mean its basically the going rate for a good corner, let alone a top safety. Adams is getting like 30% more than that average on his deal. 

 

Bates is going to make less on the TAG than Waynes got per year. unless the bengals did a league standard backloaded deal Bates deal in 3-4 years still wouldnt be a huge problem, as the cap should be going up without much issue going forward, especially with that sunday ticket deal about to get some funds from apple and the amazon deals for TNF, the funds are there. so even if it only went up the normal 8-10mil a year its done for a while aside from national disasters.

 

the cap should be like 250 million by the time we are paying burrow and chase and higgins, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, GoBengals said:

there seems to be this lingering "no one on the bengals is as good as people think" stench from this fanbase. between comments here, and social media, and facebook comments on bengals facebook posts, its wild.

 

as far as bates trade value, the seahawks gave up 2 first round picks and a player for adams and turned around and paid him 70 million over 4 years on top of it.

 

a first and a second would be a fairly easy get for a player like Bates, IMO

 

$13 million isnt that much for a high caliber player. Waynes as a free agent was worth $14/yr (before he wasnt, after-all) i mean its basically the going rate for a good corner, let alone a top safety. Adams is getting like 30% more than that average on his deal. 

 

Bates is going to make less on the TAG than Waynes got per year. unless the bengals did a league standard backloaded deal Bates deal in 3-4 years still wouldnt be a huge problem, as the cap should be going up without much issue going forward, especially with that sunday ticket deal about to get some funds from apple and the amazon deals for TNF, the funds are there. so even if it only went up the normal 8-10mil a year its done for a while aside from national disasters.

 

the cap should be like 250 million by the time we are paying burrow and chase and higgins, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Both sides already know the Number. Years/guarantees can be a sticking point, but not unresolvable. 
 

This isn’t Gordon Gekko and hostile takeovers, it is contract employee/employer negotiations. I know you get this, as a successful businessman. 

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12 hours ago, GoBengals said:

the cap should be like 250 million by the time we are paying burrow and chase and higgins, etc.

 

 

 

That's a good point & I think part of the disconnect with fans is the constant poor-mouthing coming from Hobson etc.   

 

The team has a habit of talking like they won't be able to afford crutches for Little Timmy Blackburn or some shit.  "We could pay Bates $13M but how will we survive the winter?"

 

Talent costs, the market is what it is.   They really need to get their heads around what a modern NFL franchise's budget looks like if they want to keep this thing going in the right direction.  Letting the good players walk because they can get warm bodies at a discount isn't the way. The disaster that was the OL should be evidence enough.

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I think an issue being overlooked is that the Bengals are youth-heavy in their talent, so all of their big 2nd deals are going to come up around the same time.

 

Usually a team has a blend of young and old players (above age 30 on last contacts), so the expensive ones are already "priced in" to the team's cap. But with the Bengals, the majority of their super stars (as in all pro talent, the kind that teams only usually have 1 or 2 of if they are lucky) are on rookie deals and due for like 300% raises.

 

I predict the yearly salaries of the next deals being something like ...

Burrow - 55 million 

Chase - 30 million

Higgins - 25 million 

Wilson - 18 million 

Jonah - 15 million

Pratt - 10 million 

 

So you have to get your underpaid rookie deal "bargains"  somewhere (swapping Dax and Tycen for Bates and Bell likely saves the team the 25 million they need for Higgins). Every player on a team can't be a 26 year old pro bowler getting paid at the top of their position and fit under the cap.

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Burrow alone is about to go from 9 million a year to above 50 million a year (but still worth it).

 

However, that extra 40+ million needs to come from somewhere. Usually from letting 2-3 Bates-type solid players leave in FA, and replacing them with rookie deal players.

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51 minutes ago, BlackJesus said:

somewhere (swapping Dax and Tycen for Bates and Bell likely saves the team the 25 million they need for Higgins)

 

Not as hyped on Bell necessarily but I admit I'd rather have Bates and, IDK, Reader (??) over Higgins.  Fine with drafting his replacement assuming someone here now doesn't step up.  WR2 isn't that hard to find.

 

btw Spotrac got a facelift recently

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2024/all/cincinnati-bengals/

Best I've found for contract info.

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55 minutes ago, BlackJesus said:

Burrow alone is about to go from 9 million a year to above 50 million a year (but still worth it).

 

However, that extra 40+ million needs to come from somewhere. Usually from letting 2-3 Bates-type solid players leave in FA, and replacing them with rookie deal players.

Once Mixon‘s deal is done they will go cheap at the RB position; same with WR3

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2 minutes ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

Once Mixon‘s deal is done they will go cheap at the RB position; same with WR3

 

 

Yeah if the OL is worth a damn RB shouldn't be so important but Mixon's ability to get past/through defenders behind the LOS has been crucial.

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2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

That's a good point & I think part of the disconnect with fans is the constant poor-mouthing coming from Hobson etc.   

 

The team has a habit of talking like they won't be able to afford crutches for Little Timmy Blackburn or some shit.  "We could pay Bates $13M but how will we survive the winter?"

 

Talent costs, the market is what it is.   They really need to get their heads around what a modern NFL franchise's budget looks like if they want to keep this thing going in the right direction.  Letting the good players walk because they can get warm bodies at a discount isn't the way. The disaster that was the OL should be evidence enough.

 

i forget anyone takes hobson seriously. so thats fair. 

 

as for the team, i have never seen the team behave that way. and maybe thats because i dont think hobson speaks for the team, hobson works for the team, and in ever other sport and sports team his role would be that, but at this point i just picture hobson sitting in a dark corner in a basment and everyone now running the team forgets he exists. the only people that ever drag him to sunlight are hoard and lapham who have all run in the same cirlces since 1975.

 

so i guess a big part is my personal perspective. 

 

i picture hobson still going to his little league reunion in boston and calling 70 yr old men by their 10 yr old baseball nicknames in his awful boston accent. 

 

like 10% of the bengals being cheap is like 25 year old events that are true, and the rest is just not giving out fake contracts they wont ever pay, or fans assuming they wouldnt pay up for a guy when the guy just chose to leave on his own to a better place to live or better market or whatever the reason.

 

like i guarantee somewhere this year someone is telling story of now having big enough towels in 1995 for players so they brought their own, and so on.

 

given that the agent hasnt released the bengals offer details, means its not a shitty or low offer. thats play #1 for an agent if a team is low balling.

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I really like Bates.  That being said however, I do worry about something.  Bates admitted that his diminished play during the regular season the contract status was "in his head".

If Bates does sign his tender or even signs a contract and it really isn't what he thinks he is worth will it be "in his head" next season or several seasons?

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Eagles News: Jessie Bates trade speculation

Philadelphia Eagles news and links for 5/21/22.

Super Bowl LVI - Los Angeles Rams v Cincinnati Bengals

 

Let’s get to the Philadelphia Eagles links ...

 

Should the Eagles have interest in trading for Bengals S Jessie Bates? - PhillyVoice
Would a second-round pick and, saaayyyy, a versatile starting guard in Isaac Seumalo appease Cincinnati? I think that’s a deal the Eagles would do. They likely would not part with either of their 2023 first-round picks, which are clearly earmarked for quarterback insurance in case Jalen Hurts doesn’t make substantial improvements in 2022. As for the money, Marcus Williams is a player whose game is similar to Bates’, so his five-year, $70 million deal with the Ravens feels like the floor. Because Bates is already pretty much guaranteed just under $13 million on the franchise tag, the Eagles would have to beat that. A new deal worth an average annual value of around $15 million would feel about right. And again, I would expect any new deal to have a low 2022 cap number. So in summary, to answer the question in the headline, yeah, the Eagles should have interest in trading for Jessie Bates.

 

Eagles mailbag: How much would it cost to get Jessie Bates? - NBCSP
1. The Bengals are going to want a first-round pick. They’d be crazy not to start there, especially when they’re talking to the Eagles, who have two first-rounders in 2023. In 2020, the Jets traded Jamal Adams to the Seahawks and got a first-round pick and in 2019 the Dolphins traded Minkah Fitzpatrick to the Steelers and got a first-round pick. So even though Bates isn’t as good as those two, the Bengals are going to ask for a first-rounder. But that’s probably too rich for the Eagles, even with two first-rounders next season. Should the Eagles be willing to give up a 2023 second-round pick? Yeah, that would be more appealing. Although, they might need to sweeten that deal with a Day 3 pick or a player. 2. This offseason, the Ravens signed Williams to a five-year, $70 million deal. His $14 APY ranks seventh in the NFL among safeties. Justin Reid got a contract this offseason with an APY of $10.5 million. If the Eagles were to trade for Bates, he’d need to be at around $14 million APY on this new contract. In fact, that Williams deal feels like a good template for Bates. Of course, the Eagles thought Williams was overpaid so they’d have to really like Bates more than Williams to sign him to a similar deal in addition to whatever they’d have to trade to get him.

 

Jessie Bates to skip OTAs, training camp amid franchise tag frustration, per report - Cincy Jungle
Despite his late-season resurgence, the Bengals couldn’t agree on an extension before the March 8th franchise tag deadline. They have a new deadline of July 15th to get Bates under contract for the foreseeable future, but if Bates is utilizing his last form of leverage by holding out, then it doesn’t seem like the two sides are any closer on reaching a new deal. The Bengals’ defense is better with Bates patrolling centerfield, but their price and Bates’ price aren’t close to matching. That could lead to the team calling his bluff, or Bates never playing in Cincinnati again. We’ll find that out in July and the weeks that follow.

 

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2022/5/21/23135824/eagles-news-jessie-bates-trade-rumors-speculation-bengals-safety-philadelphia-cincinnati-contract

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18 hours ago, westside bengal said:

I really like Bates.  That being said however, I do worry about something.  Bates admitted that his diminished play during the regular season the contract status was "in his head".

If Bates does sign his tender or even signs a contract and it really isn't what he thinks he is worth will it be "in his head" next season or several seasons?

Add to that the fact that the Bengals drafted his replacement rollin' around his noggin may be too much to take. May be time to see what we can get for him although I would prefer him to stay in stripes.

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I would think that there has only been a handful of Safeties that have had PFF grades of 90+ (for a full season of snaps) over the last 5 years.  Bates is one of them.  It's why he stepped up huge during the playoffs.  3 INT's (I'm counting his intentional tip into the chest of Vonn Bell in OT as his 3rd) and 7 Pass breakups in the AFC playoffs alone.  That's why the best of the best get the most money.  That said, he'd be an idiot to sit out.  If there's anything one should know about Mike Brown....he doesn't blink.  He hasn't stepped into negotiations the last couple of years on things, but I think he would "strongly" advise those making the final decisions of the ramifications it creates down the road.  Cannot let a player dictate terms.

Bengals have been more than fair, and have overpaid for many recently.  But, the new regime has made intelligent decisions, and taking care of their own, hopefully, will add a more prudent approach than the moronic resignings of Maualuga and Peko.  We can win without Bates.  Bates needs to understand this.  Thus, Bates should not get Top-5 Safety money.  Top-10, yes.  Top-5, no.  Although, if he was to get the 5th most now, in two years, that could be 10th, and in four years, 15th-20th.  That might be a fair contract.  Bell could be signed for one-third that Bates is asking for.  I'd rather take Bell, and keep the difference, offering the one-year tag for Bates, and then letting him walk.  If Bates doesn't play, and the Bengals can pull the tag offer, too, if Bates wants to go that route, then our draftees get to start sooner than expected.  There's just no reason to offer Bates more than $50M for four years ($20M gauranteed if he makes the roster each of the next two seasons).  None, whatsoever.  

Currently, according to Spotrac, these are the top-10 teams' monies allocated total to the Free Safety position for 2022:  DEN: 1 player ($19M); SF: 2 players ($14M); NEP: 3 players ($11.2M);  NOS: 3 players ($11.1M); PIT: 1 player ($10.6M); TEN: 2 players ($9.8M); CIN: 2 players ($8.5M)  Since he hasn't signed the tag, that doesn't count Bates, so if Bates was given the tag amount, the Bengals would jump to #1 overall as far as position allocation.; MIN: 1 player ($7.4M); GBP: 1 player ($7.2M); HOU 2 players ($6.5M).

Free Safety simply isn't a position that deserves top money in the NFL.  It's like TE's compared to Wide Receivers.  CB's get the money because they have the highest skill set and are needed most to stop team's from scoring in this age of Super QB's and Super WR's.  If Bates would have followed up his 2020 season with even an 80 PFF grade, then this would be a different conversation.  But, his dropoff was steep.  There could be a million reasons for it, but that gets handled in the negotiations.  Bates needs to explain himself why he had an "average" season for a Free Safety last year.  Which way is he trending?  If not for the playoffs, Bates might not have even been offered the franchise tag.  

Bates is someone the Bengals want to keep.  But, they don't need him, especially if he holds out and makes it more about him than the team; or, if he has an inflated idea of his own value either to the team, or around the league.  If what we offer isn't good enough, then "Thank you very much for your time here and good luck to you.  We certainly will find ways to make good use of the money not spent on you that will get us equal value somewhere on the team."


[url]https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/free-safety/[/url]


Vonn Bell is overpaid.  He's got to go when his contract expires unless he's willing to take a lot less than his last contract and I don't see that happening.

At $12.9M Bates is overpaid.  That's $5M more than the 4th most Free Safety or Strong Safety and $5M more than Vonn Bell.  We had a great draft and we needed to reign in the monies spent on both Safety positions as it is out of whack with Bates and Bell.

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5 hours ago, Kingspoint said:

I would think that there has only been a handful of Safeties that have had PFF grades of 90+ (for a full season of snaps) over the last 5 years.  Bates is one of them.  It's why he stepped up huge during the playoffs.  3 INT's (I'm counting his intentional tip into the chest of Vonn Bell in OT as his 3rd) and 7 Pass breakups in the AFC playoffs alone.  That's why the best of the best get the most money.  That said, he'd be an idiot to sit out.  If there's anything one should know about Mike Brown....he doesn't blink.  He hasn't stepped into negotiations the last couple of years on things, but I think he would "strongly" advise those making the final decisions of the ramifications it creates down the road.  Cannot let a player dictate terms.

Bengals have been more than fair, and have overpaid for many recently.  But, the new regime has made intelligent decisions, and taking care of their own, hopefully, will add a more prudent approach than the moronic resignings of Maualuga and Peko.  We can win without Bates.  Bates needs to understand this.  Thus, Bates should not get Top-5 Safety money.  Top-10, yes.  Top-5, no.  Although, if he was to get the 5th most now, in two years, that could be 10th, and in four years, 15th-20th.  That might be a fair contract.  Bell could be signed for one-third that Bates is asking for.  I'd rather take Bell, and keep the difference, offering the one-year tag for Bates, and then letting him walk.  If Bates doesn't play, and the Bengals can pull the tag offer, too, if Bates wants to go that route, then our draftees get to start sooner than expected.  There's just no reason to offer Bates more than $50M for four years ($20M gauranteed if he makes the roster each of the next two seasons).  None, whatsoever.  

Currently, according to Spotrac, these are the top-10 teams' monies allocated total to the Free Safety position for 2022:  DEN: 1 player ($19M); SF: 2 players ($14M); NEP: 3 players ($11.2M);  NOS: 3 players ($11.1M); PIT: 1 player ($10.6M); TEN: 2 players ($9.8M); CIN: 2 players ($8.5M)  Since he hasn't signed the tag, that doesn't count Bates, so if Bates was given the tag amount, the Bengals would jump to #1 overall as far as position allocation.; MIN: 1 player ($7.4M); GBP: 1 player ($7.2M); HOU 2 players ($6.5M).

Free Safety simply isn't a position that deserves top money in the NFL.  It's like TE's compared to Wide Receivers.  CB's get the money because they have the highest skill set and are needed most to stop team's from scoring in this age of Super QB's and Super WR's.  If Bates would have followed up his 2020 season with even an 80 PFF grade, then this would be a different conversation.  But, his dropoff was steep.  There could be a million reasons for it, but that gets handled in the negotiations.  Bates needs to explain himself why he had an "average" season for a Free Safety last year.  Which way is he trending?  If not for the playoffs, Bates might not have even been offered the franchise tag.  

Bates is someone the Bengals want to keep.  But, they don't need him, especially if he holds out and makes it more about him than the team; or, if he has an inflated idea of his own value either to the team, or around the league.  If what we offer isn't good enough, then "Thank you very much for your time here and good luck to you.  We certainly will find ways to make good use of the money not spent on you that will get us equal value somewhere on the team."


[url]https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/free-safety/[/url]


Vonn Bell is overpaid.  He's got to go when his contract expires unless he's willing to take a lot less than his last contract and I don't see that happening.

At $12.9M Bates is overpaid.  That's $5M more than the 4th most Free Safety or Strong Safety and $5M more than Vonn Bell.  We had a great draft and we needed to reign in the monies spent on both Safety positions as it is out of whack with Bates and Bell.

Salient points, although pointing out the positives on the player vs market value, is dualistic. 
 

The market, as the Bengals used to employ annually, “sets itself”. Frankly, from a commoner standpoint, every last player in the NFL is obscenely overpaid. But, much like any other entertainment commodity, they pay what the market dictates for the entertainment product. 
 

The player is a developed product. One can nitpick here and there about deficiencies, however this is the product in place. The market will set its price. As I have said ad infinitum, there is a Number for both sides—which neither will be happy with. That is the point of negotiations, in which I am sure they are both fully engaged. Part of the Bengal side’s unspoken arguments are these erstwhile rookies ready to step in. At this juncture, however, none of them are even beginning to be NFL finished product quality…there will be a large drop off in immediate quality—and the player side knows it. 
 

I was noticing the Damien Lillard situation out your way. He too might be replaceable, but the Blazers will undoubtedly reach an agreement, as the player’s value vs market value is pretty well set. 

 

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7 hours ago, Kingspoint said:

I would think that there has only been a handful of Safeties that have had PFF grades of 90+ (for a full season of snaps) over the last 5 years.  Bates is one of them.  It's why he stepped up huge during the playoffs.  3 INT's (I'm counting his intentional tip into the chest of Vonn Bell in OT as his 3rd) and 7 Pass breakups in the AFC playoffs alone.  That's why the best of the best get the most money.  That said, he'd be an idiot to sit out.  If there's anything one should know about Mike Brown....he doesn't blink.  He hasn't stepped into negotiations the last couple of years on things, but I think he would "strongly" advise those making the final decisions of the ramifications it creates down the road.  Cannot let a player dictate terms.

Bengals have been more than fair, and have overpaid for many recently.  But, the new regime has made intelligent decisions, and taking care of their own, hopefully, will add a more prudent approach than the moronic resignings of Maualuga and Peko.  We can win without Bates.  Bates needs to understand this.  Thus, Bates should not get Top-5 Safety money.  Top-10, yes.  Top-5, no.  Although, if he was to get the 5th most now, in two years, that could be 10th, and in four years, 15th-20th.  That might be a fair contract.  Bell could be signed for one-third that Bates is asking for.  I'd rather take Bell, and keep the difference, offering the one-year tag for Bates, and then letting him walk.  If Bates doesn't play, and the Bengals can pull the tag offer, too, if Bates wants to go that route, then our draftees get to start sooner than expected.  There's just no reason to offer Bates more than $50M for four years ($20M gauranteed if he makes the roster each of the next two seasons).  None, whatsoever.  

Currently, according to Spotrac, these are the top-10 teams' monies allocated total to the Free Safety position for 2022:  DEN: 1 player ($19M); SF: 2 players ($14M); NEP: 3 players ($11.2M);  NOS: 3 players ($11.1M); PIT: 1 player ($10.6M); TEN: 2 players ($9.8M); CIN: 2 players ($8.5M)  Since he hasn't signed the tag, that doesn't count Bates, so if Bates was given the tag amount, the Bengals would jump to #1 overall as far as position allocation.; MIN: 1 player ($7.4M); GBP: 1 player ($7.2M); HOU 2 players ($6.5M).

Free Safety simply isn't a position that deserves top money in the NFL.  It's like TE's compared to Wide Receivers.  CB's get the money because they have the highest skill set and are needed most to stop team's from scoring in this age of Super QB's and Super WR's.  If Bates would have followed up his 2020 season with even an 80 PFF grade, then this would be a different conversation.  But, his dropoff was steep.  There could be a million reasons for it, but that gets handled in the negotiations.  Bates needs to explain himself why he had an "average" season for a Free Safety last year.  Which way is he trending?  If not for the playoffs, Bates might not have even been offered the franchise tag.  

Bates is someone the Bengals want to keep.  But, they don't need him, especially if he holds out and makes it more about him than the team; or, if he has an inflated idea of his own value either to the team, or around the league.  If what we offer isn't good enough, then "Thank you very much for your time here and good luck to you.  We certainly will find ways to make good use of the money not spent on you that will get us equal value somewhere on the team."


[url]https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/free-safety/[/url]


Vonn Bell is overpaid.  He's got to go when his contract expires unless he's willing to take a lot less than his last contract and I don't see that happening.

At $12.9M Bates is overpaid.  That's $5M more than the 4th most Free Safety or Strong Safety and $5M more than Vonn Bell.  We had a great draft and we needed to reign in the monies spent on both Safety positions as it is out of whack with Bates and Bell.


You mention the possibility of the Bengals pulling the tag offer.  Question for whoever can answer (Sparky?):

 

If the Bengals pull the tag and Bates signs elsewhere, I assume that that the team would be in line for a compensation pick in the 2023 draft…assuming that we have lost more qualifying free agents than we have signed.  So, the question is, where do we currently stand with regards to number of qualifying free agents signed vs. number of qualifying free agents signed by other teams? 
 

🦗

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The qualifying free agents we lost were CJ Uzomah and Darius Phillips. Players we cut like Waynes or signed after being cut, like Collins, don't count in the formula.

 

If we yanked our tender offer to Bates and he signed elsewhere I don't think we would get a comp pick. There is a date, which has passed, after which free agents signed don't count. 

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3 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

The qualifying free agents we lost were CJ Uzomah and Darius Phillips. Players we cut like Waynes or signed after being cut, like Collins, don't count in the formula.

 

If we yanked our tender offer to Bates and he signed elsewhere I don't think we would get a comp pick. There is a date, which has passed, after which free agents signed don't count. 


So, where did we end up +/- with regards to qualifying free agents?

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