What the hell is happening in Ferguson?

[|kennethmw|]

And it still doesn't come close to balancing out the white guilt that you and Jamie ooze out of every pore.
I'm offended by the blatant racism and race baiting you, Jaime, patternbaiter, Kenneth et al spew day in and day out. There are lots of very good people of all races in this country- but the bad people, as individuals and as we know them to be bad- do not get nor do they deserve exemptions from accountability and justice as far as I am concerned. And you guys want to give everyone a free pass for their violent behavior simply because they are a different color than white, and persecute anyone that is white without fully finding out facts. That's some bullshit.

No, dumbass, the Bullshit is that you are sitting on your high and moral whiteness and acting like it isn't common for the police to kill unarmed black people just like they were dogs on the street. In fact, I think people like yourself have more moral outrage over dogs being killed than you do over young black men. There have been four black men, all unarmed, killed by the police in just this last month, but you think that stealing a cigar or selling cigarettes or carrying a bb gun in Wal-Mart justifies the death penalty. And you want to call me a racist. Fuck you.

[oldschooler]

 

You don't know the entire story. Nobody here does. Up until an article above we have been told he was shot in the back.

 

 

Holy fuck this is like deja vu. 

 

Look let me make it clear for you. I don't need to know the whole story.

I know that this kid was unarmed. I know that tax payers provide Officers

with non lethal weapons. When someone is unarmed, non lethal weapons

should be used at all times. There is no justification for shooting an unarmed

person 6 fucking times with a gun. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Comprende? 

So don't bother trying to justify it. Which you sure seem to be doing with

every post. I swear you and Dish seem to be saying basically the same

shit as you did with the Martin case. 

 

By the way, you don't know the fucking facts either.

Yet here you are, going on and on about it. Shaking my head.

[oldschooler]

I mean really, everyone knows the kid was unarmed. Everyone knows he was shot 

six times. That's all my post addressed was those facts. Yet here I have someone 

tell me that I don't know all of the facts after they have made numerous posts 

over and over and over again. Good Lord. It would be hilarious if it wasn't such

a serious topic. Really though, go look in the mirror. Sort yourself out. 

[|kennethmw|]

Here's some additional Info:

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men

 

And here's a little more:

 

http://www.citylab.com/crime/2014/08/two-more-unarmed-young-black-men-have-been-shot-by-police-since-michael-browns-death/376092/

 

and you saw the video above of the 87 year old black woman thrown to the ground.  But hey, it's just serving and protecting, right?

[big_dish]

I mean really, everyone knows the kid was unarmed. Everyone knows he was shot 

six times. That's all my post addressed was those facts. Yet here I have someone 

tell me that I don't know all of the facts after they have made numerous posts 

over and over and over again. Good Lord. It would be hilarious if it wasn't such

a serious topic. Really though, go look in the mirror. Sort yourself out. 

 

According to the police report, the officer was assaulted by a 6'4 250 lb man. According to eyewitnesses, that man charged the officer again. If those are the facts, what in the world would you expect the cop to do in that instance? His life was at risk.

 

Heaven forbid some lunatic ever breaks into your house intent on murdering your family. You singing him John Lennons "Imagine" will lead to the death of you all, instead of you actually protecting innocent lives. I feel sorry for those you are supposed to protect.

[big_dish]

Here's some additional Info:

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men

 

And here's a little more:

 

http://www.citylab.com/crime/2014/08/two-more-unarmed-young-black-men-have-been-shot-by-police-since-michael-browns-death/376092/

 

and you saw the video above of the 87 year old black woman thrown to the ground.  But hey, it's just serving and protecting, right?

 

Kenneth, why dont I ever see you posting about the hundreds (or thousands)  of white people that are murdered or raped by black people each year? Are you just sitting on your black high horse? Where is your decency for white lives?

 

Without a doubt, there are some cops that are pieces of shit, they are human beings and the ones that are bad should absolutely be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But there are also good cops that are put in very bad situations by people that instead of following directions, decide to fight cops and resist arrest. Anyone with a brain knows thats the absolute dumbest thing to do, and will likely lead to grave bodily injury or death. Anyone that physically fights a cop, no matter what color they are, instantly gives up their right be handled with kid gloves. And in that instant, a cops life is more valuable than some violent criminal- that part has nothing to do with color.

[big_dish]

Autopsy released. 6 shots hit, all entered through the front of the victim.

 

Some of these eyewitness testimonies do not add up.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

 

Yep, almost everyone has been lying in the name of racism and cop hating.

 

I just think all cops should wear personal cameras. It'll put the stop to nonsense liars like this, while also forcing the bad cops to follow the law as much as possible.

[Jamie_B]

Just to follow up here is how I feel about the term "white guilt"

 

The term is racist as hell and here is why, taking note of actual data and facts to see structural inequality and desiring to work to fix it means.

 

If a white person recognizes the fact that we have white privilege or that African Americans to an extent have to fight structural inequality in greater percentages than white people then we are guilty of "white guilt"? The desire for fairness and equal treatment of not just African Americans, but every minority by a white person means we feel guilty? Guilty of what? The desire for equality? Guilty as charged. I cant even process how anyone could use that term and not mean it in a racist way in all honesty, because to say a white person feels guilt is to say that they should not recognize these issues but further should be ok with them. I don't think anyone should be ok with that kind of structural inequality.

 

 

Here are a few facts from the Center for American Progress, that nobody white person should have any "white guilt" about wanting to see changed/fixed.

 

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/

 

 

1. While people of color make up about 30 percent of the United States’ population, they account for 60 percent of those imprisoned. The prison population grew by 700 percent from 1970 to 2005, a rate that is outpacing crime and population rates. The incarceration rates disproportionately impact men of color: 1 in every 15 African American men and 1 in every 36 Hispanic men are incarcerated in comparison to 1 in every 106 white men.

 

2. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, one in three black men can expect to go to prison in their lifetime. Individuals of color have a disproportionate number of encounters with law enforcement, indicating that racial profiling continues to be a problem. A report by the Department of Justice found that blacks and Hispanics were approximately three times more likely to be searched during a traffic stop than white motorists. African Americans were twice as likely to be arrested and almost four times as likely to experience the use of force during encounters with the police.

 

3. Students of color face harsher punishments in school than their white peers, leading to a higher number of youth of color incarcerated. Black and Hispanic students represent more than 70 percent of those involved in school-related arrests or referrals to law enforcement. Currently, African Americans make up two-fifths and Hispanics one-fifth of confined youth today.

 

4. According to recent data by the Department of Education, African American students are arrested far more often than their white classmates. The data showed that 96,000 students were arrested and 242,000 referred to law enforcement by schools during the 2009-10 school year. Of those students, black and Hispanic students made up more than 70 percent of arrested or referred students. Harsh school punishments, from suspensions to arrests, have led to high numbers of youth of color coming into contact with the juvenile-justice system and at an earlier age.

 

5. African American youth have higher rates of juvenile incarceration and are more likely to be sentenced to adult prison. According to the Sentencing Project, even though African American juvenile youth are about 16 percent of the youth population, 37 percent of their cases are moved to criminal court and 58 percent of African American youth are sent to adult prisons.

 

6. As the number of women incarcerated has increased by 800 percent over the last three decades, women of color have been disproportionately represented. While the number of women incarcerated is relatively low, the racial and ethnic disparities are startling. African American women are three times more likely than white women to be incarcerated, while Hispanic women are 69 percent more likely than white women to be incarcerated.

 

7. The war on drugs has been waged primarily in communities of color where people of color are more likely to receive higher offenses. According to the Human Rights Watch, people of color are no more likely to use or sell illegal drugs than whites, but they have higher rate of arrests. African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses. From 1980 to 2007 about one in three of the 25.4 million adults arrested for drugs was African American.

 

8. Once convicted, black offenders receive longer sentences compared to white offenders. The U.S. Sentencing Commission stated that in the federal system black offenders receive sentences that are 10 percent longer than white offenders for the same crimes. The Sentencing Project reports that African Americans are 21 percent more likely to receive mandatory-minimum sentences than white defendants and are 20 percent more like to be sentenced to prison.

 

9. Voter laws that prohibit people with felony convictions to vote disproportionately impact men of color. An estimated 5.3 million Americans are denied the right to vote based on a past felony conviction. Felony disenfranchisement is exaggerated by racial disparities in the criminal-justice system, ultimately denying 13 percent of African American men the right to vote. Felony-disenfranchisement policies have led to 11 states denying the right to vote to more than 10 percent of their African American population.

 

10. Studies have shown that people of color face disparities in wage trajectory following release from prison. Evidence shows that spending time in prison affects wage trajectories with a disproportionate impact on black men and women. The results show no evidence of racial divergence in wages prior to incarceration; however, following release from prison, wages grow at a 21 percent slower rate for black former inmates compared to white ex-convicts. A number of states have bans on people with certain convictions working in domestic health-service industries such as nursing, child care, and home health care—areas in which many poor women and women of color are disproportionately concentrated.

[Jamie_B]

Anyway getting back to the notion of "riots" here is an eyewitness account

 

http://sojo.net/blogs/2014/08/18/eyewitness-police-force-ferguson-lying-and-i-am-bearing-witness-photos

 

Eyewitness: 'The Police Force in Ferguson Is Lying, and I Am Bearing Witness' (PHOTOS)

 

Protestors march in Ferguson, MO. Image courtesy Heather Wilson/PICO.

Editor's Note: Violence, anger, and confusion continues in Ferguson, Mo. Former Sojourners intern and current Digital and Creative Director for PICO Heather Wilson is reporting from the scene and shared her eyewitness account with Sojourners and others late Sunday night. We share it here as an important perspective in the ongoing unrest and confusion. Please keep the safety and wellbeing of all people in Ferguson in your prayers.

"Captain Johnson and the police force in Ferguson IS LYING, AND I AM BEARING WITNESS.

Two hours before curfew, I was photographing at the front of a peaceful march of all generations, calling for justice and peace in Ferguson. It was controlled and respectful—when someone stepped out the traffic lane they were marching in, they were directed back.

Without provocation, armored cars rolled up on us...yelled unintelligibly for 60 seconds and launched tear gas at us without warning. Women...children...even a woman in a wheelchair.

Captain Johnson is saying that bottles and Molotov cocktails were thrown at the front line. TONIGHT I CAN TESTIFY THAT THIS IS UNTRUE.

We fell back to what had been the line of safety last night AND THEY CONTINUED SHOOTING TEARGAS past this line into the peaceful crowd. 

They methodically backed everyone down a mile-long stretch of road that has been an understood safe space of protest with flash grenades, teargas, armored cars, and shooting rubber bullets and blocks of wood at the protestors in very tight proximity.

I have never had 50 guns trained at me before, running with camera gear, hands in the air. The inexcusable and irrational level of violence is terrifying. 

Towards the end of the evening, more looting did happen. But there was none before the police attacked us repeatedly.

I am horrified. And angry. And inconsolable that people in power are lying yet again."

In an earlier note, Wilson wrote, "I have no words for the aggression displayed tonight. Prayers are deeply needed."

The comments to which Wilson is referring occured at a news conference on Sunday night, where after a weekend of unrest Missouri State Highway Patrol captain Ronald S. Johnson had said that Molotov cocktails were thrown at police and that some demonstrators had looted businesses, thrown firebombs, and opened fire on the police on Sunday night.  

Calling these “premeditated criminal acts," Johnson added, “Based on these conditions, I had no alternative but to elevate the level of our response.” 

This marks the ninth day of protestst and police action since the death of Michael Brown. See more photos from last night's protest here.

 

+media details

[Jamie_B]

Now keeping in mind the above article I posted and Nati Ice's stats in which he said

 

 

However, in this specific locality the targeting of African-Americans is statistically abnormal. The rate in which they are stopped is much higher than the rate of crimes for their race and locality. That is all I said and it is 100% accurate.

 

 

Is it any wonder that that community is up in arms with questions? Blaming the media here is a cop out, the media themselves were accosted.

[|RayDoggBengal|]

Autopsy released. 6 shots hit, all entered through the front of the victim.
 
Some of these eyewitness testimonies do not add up.
  
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

Actually the news conference and their autopsy do backup the eyewitness testimonies. The NY Times just reported parts of the news conference.

For example the say "One of the bullets shattered Mr. Brown’s right eye, traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone. The last two shots in the head would have stopped him in his tracks and were likely the last fired."

Note they say the bullet shattered his eye and traveled through his face. It gives the impression he was shot in the eye and that's not what they said. The eye wound was an exit wound from him being hit in the top of his and it travels out his eye and into his chest. The witnesses say he tried to give up, at over 6 feet to have the shot enter his head and exit his eye he had to have his head down.

Anyone who just read the article is not getting what was really said at the news conference.

[USN Bengal]

This thread is locked to give people some time to cool off.

 

We (Moderator Team) realize that this is a highly charged and emotional subject, not just for this thread but for our country in general. We also are aware that differing opinions might elicit emotional responses, knee jerk reactions, and turn this place into it's own flame war.

 

WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET IT HAPPEN!

 

Once again people... please attack the post and NOT the poster. If you are really pissed off enough and want to call someone a racist, asshole, ignorant, or ANYTHING else that is openly attacking someone... do it via PM and not in the open forum... thank you.

 

This thread will reopen, after we (Moderator Team) think that sufficient time has passed for people to chill out.

[|Elflocko|]

I think it's safe to open this back up now.

 

Please remember to be civil (difficult, I know considering the topic at hand).

[Jamie_B]

Putting this back in the proper thread

 

In reference to people jumping to conclusions without all the evidence, seems there is a bit more going on here eh?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maA1FUJqhew

 

 

Edit: Also this - Attorney For Ferguson Market: NO ONE From His Store Called 911 To Report Cigar Theft 

[|Bunghole|]

I think a huge issue here, if we can set race aside for a moment, is that for whatever reason, the police seem to be literally jumping the gun and shooting people for no damn good reason lately. These cops are also equipped with batons, pepper spray, cuffs, tasers...why are we skipping escalation steps from zero to lethal force? Surely their training dictates some level of using non-lethal force as opposed to shooting at everyone. It's like shooting their pistols at people has become more of a first option instead of a last one. THAT is SCARY to me.

[|Elflocko|]

I think a huge issue here, if we can set race aside for a moment, is that for whatever reason, the police seem to be literally jumping the gun and shooting people for no damn good reason lately. These cops are also equipped with batons, pepper spray, cuffs, tasers...why are we skipping escalation steps from zero to lethal force? Surely their training dictates some level of using non-lethal force as opposed to shooting at everyone. It's like shooting their pistols at people has become more of a first option instead of a last one. THAT is SCARY to me.

 

Yeah, it's been like that here in Las Vegas for a few years now, and it seemed to coincide with the election of the soon to be outgoing chief.  They developed a "Shoot first, ask questions later, if ever" mentality, and would gun you down without a second thought.  And it didn't matter race, creed, social status, etc., if you got on their wrong side, you could end up full of holes.  

 

And here's what kills me; I see Metro almost daily, and they not only have their sidearm, but a baton, and a taser.  Yet I'll turn on the evening news, and see a story about some woman on the east side getting gunned down because she was waving a wooden spoon about in a threatening manner.  My perception of law enforcement has definitely evolved over the last 10 years or so, I'll say that... 

[T-Dub]

Yeah but one time I think I heard a black guy on the bus call me "cracker" and I mean, how come we aren't marching on Washington about that?


:facepalm:

[T-Dub]

Police have apparently confiscated some handguns. I expect a statement from the NRA any moment now.

[CincyInDC]

"in this case we will make an exception and not be thoroughly outraged since you know who got their guns taken away [wink]" -NRA

[BengalBacker]

Yeah but one time I think I heard a black guy on the bus call me "cracker" and I mean, how come we aren't marching on Washington about that?


:facepalm:

 

 

Police have apparently confiscated some handguns. I expect a statement from the NRA any moment now.

 

 

"in this case we will make an exception and not be thoroughly outraged since you know who got their guns taken away [wink]" -NRA

 

 

nice

[Storm]

http://www.fox19.com/story/25373338/new-video-gives-insight-into-death-of-samantha-ramsey

 

Anybody familiar with the Samantha Ramsey shooting?

 

Happened in April and still no resolution

 

Where is the outrage?

[oldschooler]

 

According to the police report, the officer was assaulted by a 6'4 250 lb man. According to eyewitnesses, that man charged the officer again. If those are the facts, what in the world would you expect the cop to do in that instance? His life was at risk.

 

Heaven forbid some lunatic ever breaks into your house intent on murdering your family. You singing him John Lennons "Imagine" will lead to the death of you all, instead of you actually protecting innocent lives. I feel sorry for those you are supposed to protect.

 

 

Hey dish, I'm pretty sure I already addressed the first part.

You know Police carry non-lethal weapons, right?Just because someone 

charges you (if true) no matter their size, that does not mean you have to kill

them when you have other non-lethal means to stop them. 

 

This is the second time you have said armed peoples lives were at risk from unarmed people. 

Guess which people died? 

 

The last part makes me laugh, in a pathetic way. 

You know you're more likely to have yourself or someone in your household die from your guns

than you are to kill an intruder? Yeah, well it's true. So you could say I am protecting them. 

 

Also, come into my house with the intent to hurt me or my Family. I'll be signing Pantera's "Five Minutes Alone"

and you'll be wishing I had a gun to put you out of your misery. 

 

Good day to you. 

[MichaelWeston]

It all depends what the truth is. If the guy didn't steal the cigars, why is the clerk trying to get him to stop and why does he push the clerk? Where did the report come that someone stole cigars?

 

If he was shot in the back and not running at the cop why aren't there entry wounds in his back?

[|Tigers Johnson|]

This is not any kind of indictment on this particular case or saying anyone did anything right or wrong...

As some of you know I am a full time Firefighter for a fairly busy department...

I have an honest question:

How many on this forum or in this thread I should say have been in a life or death event or even perceived life or death situation where the next few moments or decisions they make could possibly cost them their lives or the lives of people around them?

I know what it is like to make decisions under this duress... I work in a lower income part of town... I have seen enough stabbings and shootings to last me a lifetime... I have seen enough drug related crime... I have been in enough fires to never care if I see one again... All that is unlikely though because I am only halfway through my career.

Just a little insight into what can happen.... This happened to me two days ago... Relatively minor but can give you a little insight as to what you think you see and what is really there in a high stress moment:

We pulled up on a relatively small house with a ton of smoke showing and fire showing from the entire north end of the house. I grab the hose line off the back of the truck with my lieutenant and we go to the north side and I peak in the window(well known to older firefighters to peak in a room to see the layout before you apply water because once you do you can't see anything!). As I look in I see what appears to be the second floor collapsed and fire on the first and second floor. I look up on the outside really quick to see what the second floor looks like and I see fire showing from the window. I put water through the window and knock down most of the room then take the hose line and knock down what was showing through the window. Then we make an interior attack where I knock down the rest of the fire.....but I keep looking for the stairs and can't find them. Turns out the floor I thought was collapsed was the joists for the attic and the second story window was a burnt out vent. The roof for this house was a little tall, but I wasn't seeing what I really thought I was seeing....

My point is this, I am not saying what is going on in Ferguson is justified, right, wrong, or whatever. I am saying that none of us.... Even the media wasnt there in the moment and perceived what was happening, but we all want to be outraged and play arm chair quarterbacks.

For all I know these cops could be total fuck sticks that could deserve the death penalty.

What I will say is lumping the deaths of several people in police related incidents over the past few months all together is a huge mistake. They have to be treated individually or the witch hunt will continue....

[Jamie_B]

It all depends what the truth is. If the guy didn't steal the cigars, why is the clerk trying to get him to stop and why does he push the clerk? Where did the report come that someone stole cigars?

 

If he was shot in the back and not running at the cop why aren't there entry wounds in his back?

 

 

I think you're entirely missing the point here. IF he stole the cigars, which is still up for debate because the store owner said that they didnt report that it came from a customer, and the video I posted shows him paying for them so we likely will never know the whole story about what happened in the convenience store, but back to the point, it doesnt matter it's not at all relevant to whether or not the kid deserved to die and if there was at all any possibility of using non-lethal force to contain him.